Buyer Fraud – Sellers Beware – Ebay Won’t Help

[lexusking]

I have been the victim of a buyer fraud and Ebay say it is not covered by Seller protection

In February 2024 I sold a £4000 Computer part I decided not to use to a buyer who had joined ebay one month before – zero feedback. I discounted the part from £4500 to £4000 to close the deal, he paid, I shipped the part to him by Royal Mail tracked insured service and on the Royal Mail tracking service there is a photo of him signing for the part at his door with his details displayed on the parcel. Ebay have a copy of this photo. Just to clarify he has never said he has not received the part, he has never questioned the condition of the part or the fact that it is the correct part that he bought. The buyer then messaged me asking for a further discount or he would like to return it, I had sold it with a no return policy and explained this and also stated that I could not retrospectively discount it any more. He then contacted Ebay saying he wanted to return it, Ebay opened a case, looked at the details and closed the case in my favour as I had followed ebay’s policies and the sale was conducted correctly. In March 2024 another case was opened by Ebay, saying that an outside financial institution had requested a refund of the full £4000 and until this was resolved my selling account funds would be on hold. I sent details to ebay showing the buyer had received the product correctly and suggested this was a fraud to get the product for nothing and I presume Ebay sent that information to the financial institution. This week Ebay messaged me to say the case had been decided in the buyers favour and that I needed to pay £4000 to ‘refund’ the sale. I contacted customer services to appeal and had a long chat with a service representative who said ebay could do nothing as the claim had come from the buyers funding source through paypal and they were powerless to do anything. I pointed out the buyer still had the part and the agent suggested I contact him to ask for it back – I have done this through messages  but have received no reply. Next week ebay want £4000 from me – bare in mind they took c£500 commission on the sale. So I would be £4500 out of pocket. The agent took my comments seriously and Ebay translated the ‘chat’ to a complaint, and within a few hours ebay responded saying they have followed their policies, refunded me £14 ‘dispute’ but they could do nothing. It has been suggested I contact the financial ombudsman if I am not happy, I will but on their website it says it can take them 6 months to reply. I am also going to contact the Police fraud hotline on Monday but that takes 28 days to get a response. So I lose £4500 to a scammer?  How can this be? Has anyone else fallen foul of a situation like this?

[*help_no_brakes*]

It's not a matter of eBay siding with the CC company.

eBay has no control over this.

However if the payment dispute was opened for the same reason as the original eBay case you should have been eligible for Seller Protection.

Might pay to read all of this.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/selling-policies/payment-dispute-seller-protections?id=5293&st=...

[lexusking]

Well well - so I wonder why they have told me I don't qualify for protection - even though they sided with me with irrefutable proof that the item was delivereyed - and the buyer seems to have stated he has had no refund (he still has the part and has not returned it) to his CC. And the CC has sided with hima nd claimed the money back off ebay - but for the same reason. And I have appealed and lost in 30 mins....mmmnnn

[lexusking]

Well well - so if the buyer opened the case for the same reason then why is seller protection not in place mmmnnn

[myriad*seller]

You need to show the wording of the card chargeback as this is VERY important

If the buyer claims they did not receive their item, like they did in the first dispute that you won, then you ARE covered under Seller Protection

But if, as I suspect, the chargeback was for any other reason eg item not as described rather than the buyer claiming they did not receive the item then there is no seller protection

We cannot advise until you state the exact reason the chargeback was opened 

[*help_no_brakes*]

See the reply from myriad*seller.

Also you should post the reasons for both the return requests... eBay & payment dispute.

[sml192]

Based on the information given in post no. 20, the reasons for the original eBay case and the chargeback are not the same, so wouldn't qualify for protection on those grounds. 

The original eBay case was a 'Change of Mind' return (not an 'Item Not Received' case). 

The reason for the chargeback was:  'The buyer hasn't received a refund'. 

This is the advice eBay provides for that kind of chargeback under 'Handling Payment Disputes':

Providing evidence for the payment dispute

Because different types of evidence can be more helpful in certain cases, we recommend providing different types of evidence depending on the type of payment dispute. We'll send all evidence to the buyer's payment institution.

Buyer doesn’t recognise the transaction or Buyer didn't receive the item

Item doesn't match the listing or Item was damaged when received or Item received had missing parts

Item wasn't authentic

Buyer didn't receive a refund

Type of item	Recommended evidence
Any physical item	Proof that a refund was already provided on eBay Proof of cancellation Your stated return policy Messages with the buyer showing that a refund isn’t required Proof that the item was returned in a different condition, or that a different item was returned

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/getting-paid/handling-payment-disputes?id=4799

If your return policy was set as 'Returns Not Accepted' then as far as I can see, based on the above, you should have been protected. 

What information did you provide eBay when you originally  responded to the payment dispute?

[lexusking]

I have a photo of the buyer receiving the part and signing for it, coutesy of Royal Mail special delivery and ebay checked the returns policy and found in my favour on the same day the original case was opened. On this item and others like it (I sold 3 of these CPU's although the similar - different models at different prices - and received 100% feedback from the other 2 buyers and one was in the US) returns policy was no returns.

[lexusking]

On the second case the photo again with a scan of the buyer asking for discounts, there was very little opportunity to give information on the second case and I thought at the time Ebay would just dismiss it again, little did I know they rely on the 3rd party CC to make the decision - I did point out the buyer had the part, had not disputed the part in any way and I thought it was a fraud, and the case was found in favour of the buyer.....

[lexusking]

The wording on the chargeback is "refund not received" - I have posted this but anyway thats what Ebay have given me.

No other reason - no return of the item to me, no dispute the item had any issue - how would I know what 'proof' the buyer gave his CC compnay? I don't imagin Ebay know, and thats what the chargeback was for

Oh and on the advice of Ebay last week I have contacted, through Ebay, the buyer to ask for the return and have received no response

Ebay have never asked if I have had the item back, obvioulsy I have not nor has the buyer contacted me since buying the product in March trying to return it, he did ask in several messages for a further discount after delivery.

Fraud?

[*vyolla*]

Chargebacks for reasons other than item not received are really harsh.

As mentioned earlier on in this thread there is no seller protection against them, no right to access further information and no appeal route.  eBay have refunded the chargeback fee and advised you to pursue this with the buyer and this is your only route forward now. 

[lexusking]

Anthing can be challenged - just becuase something works one way at the moment does not mean it is correct or right. Look at the Horizon scandal. The NHS blood scandal. Thousands or possibly tens of thousands of sellers are out of pocket because of a policy. That's not correct. It's unfair, there is no responsibility taken and depending on each individual case I imagine many of these cases are because of buyer fraud. So the loophole exists between Ebay and the financial institutions finding for the buyer and no one does anything, and legitimate sellers lose money. How is that right? I wonder with social media presence and press intervention how many thousands of sellers would come forward saying this has happened to me? How many people would it take to change the current way everything is? 500, 1000, 5000? I reckon 1000 would do it........

[therma-tec]

The problem is ebay just bend over and take it when a chargeback is issued as they aren't losing anything.

Have a read of this,

https://b2b.mastercard.com/news-and-insights/blog/how-can-merchants-dispute-credit-card-chargebacks/

You SHOULD have a decent timeframe to dispute a chargeback and since the reason is 'hasn't received a refund' they buyer surely must prove that they returned the item?

[lexusking]

Well thay is an interesting read - from Mastercard. I think the issue is not that Ebay just take it, it's that the issue not clearly explained, or I was ceratinly not aware, after 25 years on Ebay, the compelling evidence needed to fight the chargeback. There is a box to put some details and the opportunity to include photo's but no way of uploading any other documents unless in JPG or similar format. That's a real pain. Also what is actually passed over to the credit card company. Ebay have access to all the delivery information and messages between the customer and the seller, they can see if the part was delivered and what any dispte may be about. It seems to me Ebay don't put any effort in to fighting on behalf of the seller and if financial institution believes what the buyer says, or lies or whatever, Ebay just want the money from the seller so it's no loss to them.

Being selfish in my case I would have thought Ebay would have just told the financial institution that the part was delivered, they have the proof of this, that as far as Ebay are aware the buyer still has the part and has not disputed the part in any way (he hasn't), and that the seller is making an incorrect claim for chargeback and this should be refused. Ebay are big enough to do this against the financial institutions with the billions of dollars of sales. But they don't - Why?

$73,000,000,000 Thats 73 billions dollars of merchadise was sold on Ebay last year - how much revenue does that produce for the financial institutions who transact and fund those purchases. Ebay can fight anything if they want to.

[wsmpb02]

If it were me, and I didn't sell regularly/much on eBay, I'd have my bank block any activity from eBay.
This is outrageous.

[lexusking]

Ah but that's giving in and walking away, surely the way to solve the issue is to fight to get a resolution on it by whatever means.

Courts

Financial ombudsman

Financial conduct authority

Social Media - Twitter Facebook

Radio and TV

Newspapers local and national

There are many ways to fight for something, it just depends how much time someone is willing to put into it. I will have a mull next week, I have some business stuff to attend to and a trail marathon to run on Saturday then I will decide how far this is worth taking. But if I do decide to do something I won't stop.  It won't be for the money but the principle.

[4_bathrooms]

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@lexusking wrote:

1st Dispute - buyer wanted to return - Ebay Wording:

You can't work things out with the buyer

Conclusion

Case details

OutcomeOutcome The case was decided in your favour.The case was decided in your favour. More detailsMore details We received tracking information that shows the item was delivered to the buyer's address. This case will not affect your seller performance. Any Feedback left for this transaction will be removed.

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You first state the reason the original eBay case was opened was because the buyer wanted to return; but eBay's wording suggests the buyer opened an "item not received" case which was decided in your favour because you had tracking proving delivery. Can you please clarify the exact reason the case was opened for? Where it states "Your buyer has opened a request because..." (or something similar) it's the bit after the "because".  

[*vyolla*]

Whatever you plan to do, I'd get that message/letter to the buyer letting them know that arrangements need to be made to return your item before doing anything else so that they're aware that you want your item back and you have something to show the courts.

[lexusking]

Yes sent yesterday thanks

[lexusking]

The exact wording on the case - today still is "You can't work things out with the buyer"

That is there in black and white today on the dispite decided in my favour - as I printed above from 'ebay wording': is exactly as it written and shown

[4_bathrooms]

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@lexusking wrote:

The exact wording on the case - today still is "You can't work things out with the buyer"

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Sorry, that is not the reason given for the buyer opening the request in the first place. Again, you need to go to the first message in your eBay messages inbox which states "Your buyer has opened a request because..." (or similar wording) and quote exactly what it states after the word "because".

It probably doesn't matter now, anyway. If you have sent a letter to the buyer stating a time limit for returning the item or paying up before court action is taken you would now be committed to that route.