No reduction of Sellers Fees for a partial reduction to buyer

[lcocs2]

Sellers paying the price — YET AGAIN!

I sent a book (list price £95) to a regular customer in USA which was damaged in transit. Customer and I amicably agreed a £40 reduction in price as compensation.

I made the refund through the managed payment system and EBay took £40 from my Bank Account. Under Paypal a % of that would have been made up from a proportionate reduction in Fees. That is not the case now under the new managed payment system! EBay will not reduce the fees paid on the full price!

However, EBay immediately refunded the customer the appropriate portion of VAT they charged on the sale. (So, customer got a total of £42.40).

BUT EBAY are now keeping 100% of the seller fees . . . this was not HIGHLIGHTED in the switch to managed payments. Therefore, aside from EBay collecting fees early (not monthly as before) it appears sellers fees are now non-refundable.

Very unhappy with this surreptitious change to EBay terms and conditions.

[lcocs2 · Accepted solution]

I am pleased to inform you that EBay has refunded the fees charged on the partial refund I made to my customer.

This may set a precedent . . . but equally it is pre-emptive of any further escalation!

For the record :

All communication with buyer was made through EBay messages
Buyer sent photographs of transit damage through EBay Messages.
I set out clearly and precisely what the refund was for and that the buyer wished to keep the book and that the refund was being made in full and final settlement.
The refund was initiated through the EBay refund flow.

I think there are two key issues.
1. EBay had automatically refunded the buyer the VAT originally charged on the refunded amount i.e. confirming the Final Transaction Value to be after deduction of the refund? Calculation of fees had to follow the same path! Any court would rule that Final Value has to mean Final Value . . .
2. The terms and conditions regarding partial refunds had been altered for those opting in to managed payments . . . giving rise to a technical issue which still needs resolving.

I am grateful to EBay for swiftly resolving the matter.

[redwick1]

You do not get fees back for a partial refund on ebay only on full refunds

This is not new or due to managed payments

Also you do not or did not get paypal fees back for your fees.

This changed a while ago

[lcocs2]

1. Sellers always used to get a proportionate reduction in fees.
2. I did not claim Paypal reduced Fees
3. The procedure was changed surreptitiously???? and still remains as an 'unfair term' or business practice.
4. EBay could retain 100% of the VAT charged and hand over the transaction total to the Govt. BUT that would be 'unfair' to buyers if not illegal i.e. collecting VAT on non-existent sales? (Which sounds just like collecting seller's fees on non-existent sales!)

Perhaps someone could point out to me where this 'sharp practice' is CLEARLY & PROMINENTLY spelled out in the terms and conditions and when exactly the change was implemented.

[tobiasd4]

Paypal used to part refund fees, but stopped about 2 years ago, ebay have never part refunded. We all agreed to this when signing up to ebay, even if think it unfair. EBAY SITE = EBAY RULES.

[redwick1]

See the ebay policy.https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/fees-credits-invoices/fee-credits?id=4128

You are not eligible for fee credits in any of the following situations:

• You refund the buyer outside of eBay (using PayPal to send money, for instance)
• You issued a partial refund to the buyer
• You or the buyer asked us to step in, and the case was closed with a refund to the buyer

[lcocs2]

I rest my case!

-----------------------------------------------------------
No refund of fees under Managed Payments if . . .

You issued a partial refund to the buyer
BUT UNDER

For sellers not activated for eBay managed payments

The same term does not apply! because it says you do get a fee reduction if "you initiate a refund through the refund flow" which is what I did!
-----------------------------------------------------------
As I said it seems new under managed payments you don't get a refund!

Either way it is confusing and buried in the small print. It is still an unfair business term penalising sellers and charging fees on an element of 'zero final sale value'

PS "Final Sales Value" should not mean 'interim'  sales value. The Final Sales Value was reached after the refund was made and the transaction was concluded! 

[redwick1]

They only reason it says Managed payments is because the policy has been updated. All you have to do is search above for fees for a partial refund ebay and you will find posts on here going back several years saying that ebay do not refund fees for partial payments. Yours is a lost case.

[lcocs2]

re-read the T&Cs

Not opted in you get a refund . . . opted in No Refund

Simple innit!

Do you work for EBay . . . a lost case??? Nice friendly tone!

[tobiasd4]

If ebay allowed part fee refunds, we would all claim buyer paid less.

The lesson to learn is to describe items correctly & pack them to withstand a bomb.

If carrier damaged your parcel, then you need to claim from them.

[lcocs2]

Thanks for your response — it might have been more meaningful if you had read the discussion properly before opining . . .

> If ebay allowed part fee refunds, we would all claim buyer paid less.

UNDER T&Cs : For sellers not activated for eBay managed payments

"you do get a fee reduction if "you initiate a refund through the refund flow"

So, claim away . . . as long as you "initiate a refund through the refund flow" which is what I did!

However, under managed payments it appears the rules have changed . . . which takes us right back to the start of the discussion.

>The lesson to learn is to describe items correctly & pack them to withstand a bomb. If carrier damaged your parcel, then you need to claim from them.

Please keep on point . . . your two comments are irrelevant — the discussion is regarding EBay fees being charged 'unfairly' and the definition of the 'Final Value' (i.e. being what the buyer paid' for the transaction -v- an arbitrary 'interim' value. Final means Final!

I have escalated this with 'Customer Service Managed Payments' and fully intend to take it further i.e. legal / mediation if required!

I don't understand why everyone who has responded thus far (so-called community experts) just accept EBay can do what it likes . . . irrespective of UK law. There is a very strong legal argument against EBay's policy . . .

[tobiasd4]

I read your question, you haven't read my replies properly. Ebay NEVER part refunded fees, whether you think this ls legal or not doesn't matter here, you would have to take ebay to court if you think it was wrong. As we keep informing you, we ALL agreed to ebay T&C's when using the site & all have option to leave if we don't like them. The community experts that reply here don't always agree with ebay policies, but we can't change it.

[lcocs2]

I beg to differ. I have run a mail order book business since 1990 and been on EBay a very long time. (Different ID now retired)

Yes, I read your replies most carefully and yes fees were reduced proportionately in the past. As stated twice before . . .

UNDER T&Cs : For sellers not activated for eBay managed payments
you do get a fee reduction if "you initiate a refund through the refund flow"

However, under managed payments it appears the rules have changed . . . which takes us right back to the start of the discussion again!

Give it up as you are not helping anyone by preaching subservience to EBay . . . they are not above the law and unfair, illegal terms and conditions are precisely that.

[lcocs2]

<sigh> You are Wrong!

For the 4th time . . .

Read the terms and conditions carefully . . . not opted in you get a partial refund

############### T&Cs ###############

If your item doesn't sell, or if there was an issue with the transaction that you resolved, you may qualify for a credit on some or all of the fees you paid.

Credits for refunds and unpaid items

• You refund a buyer in full for a return or an item not received request, or you initiate a refund through the refund flow

Fees credited

• Final value fee
• Final value fee on shipping (when original shipping is refunded in full or was never paid)
• Promoted listings fee
• Any applicable additional final value fees for not meeting performance expectations

For managed payment Sellers

You are not eligible for fee credits in any of the following situations:

• You issued a partial refund to the buyer

Yet again I rest my case! 

Simple Innit

[redwick1]

We are not going to agree here but there have been no fees refunded for a partial refund for as long as I can remember if ever. If you had done as I suggested and put in the search box refunded fees for a partial refund you will see posts come up from as early as 2015 saying that you don't get your fees back for a partil refund.

[lcocs2]

I don't see how you can speak for every EBay transaction i.e no partial
refunds for as long as you can remember if ever.

So, in your reality and experience maybe not . . . but definitely so in
mine.

Based on the responses received thus far I prefer to stick to the facts
rather than opinions.

• The T&Cs are clear. I've spelled out enough times  . . .

• Final Value means FINAL VALUE

• There is a legal definition/term FINAL . . . the end, conclusion,
etc., etc. . . . thus charging fees on an arbitrary or interim value is
outside of the contract between seller and EBay and *it is governed by
UK law*.

• The *Final Value *is when all matters relating to the transaction have
been concluded between buyer and seller!

As I pointed out earlier EBay refunded VAT charged on the refund . . .
why? Because they can't charge VAT on a non-existent transaction! Same
principle applies to Seller Fees when they have defined FINAL VALUE as
the basis of calculation.

I have already submitted a formal complaint with notice that I intend to
pursue the matter further if necessary via mediation or small claims court.

EBay needs to adhere to the legal definition of/*Final Value */or use /a
different term/ in its contract with sellers

OR

make partial refunds of fees in the appropriate circumstances.

[redwick1]

I can speak because I have been responding and reading these boards for many years and replied to many thousands of posts. .  I buy and sell on ebay and is not only my experience but we read the ebay policies so we can give the correct advice. I can see I am never going to convince you so we will leave it at that. As said if you take the time to search you will see many posts going back many years where questions have been asked about partial refund fees and the replies are that ebay does not get involved with partial refunds you only receive the fees when you have sorted it out with the buyer and given a full refund.

[lcocs2]

for the 5th time EBay states . . .

"If your item doesn't sell, or if there was an issue with the
transaction *that you resolved,* *you may qualify for a credit on some
or all of the fees you paid."*


*If not opted in to managed payments*

*Credits for refunds and unpaid items*

* You refund a buyer in full for a return
 or
an item not received request
,
or*you initiate a refund through the refund flow*

Fees credited

* Final value fee
* Final value fee on shipping (when original shipping is
refunded in full or was never paid)
* Promoted listings fee
* Any applicable additional final value fees for not meeting
performance expectations

*For Managed Payment Sellers*

You are not eligible for fee credits in any of the following
situations:

* You issued a partial refund to the buyer

/*Summarised as . . .
*/

/*Not opted in*/

/*if there was an issue with the transaction *that you resolved —
**//***you initiate a refund through the refund flow* —* *you may
qualify for a credit on some or all of the fees you paid.**/

/**Opted In**/

/**You are not eligible for fee credits if y**//**ou issued a
partial refund to the buyer**/

/*/*I really do not understand why you repeatedly argue contrary to the
above! */*/

/*Your*/ reality is your lived truth and if that is what you truly
believe then that is your right to do so. However, if you choose to
ignore EBay policies as set out above that is also your right. We can
all make our relationship with reality as flexible as we want? However,
I prefer facts — precise legal definitions — where FINAL VALUE means
FINAL VALUE — as do the UK Courts.

I won't waste any more time on addressing your 'Community Expert'
opinion which is brought into question when you completely ignore FACTS
contradictory to your view of the world of EBay.

**

[tobiasd4]

Do come back & let us know when you take ebay to court, many have threatened to, haven't seen any proof any have done so.

[lcocs2]

I am pleased to inform you that EBay has refunded the fees charged on the partial refund I made to my customer.

This may set a precedent . . . but equally it is pre-emptive of any further escalation!

[lcocs2]

Read the terms and conditions carefully . . . not opted in you get a partial refund

############### T&Cs ###############

If your item doesn't sell, or if there was an issue with the transaction that you resolved, you may qualify for a credit on some or all of the fees you paid.

Credits for refunds and unpaid items

• You refund a buyer in full for a return or an item not received request, or you initiate a refund through the refund flow

Fees credited

• Final value fee
• Final value fee on shipping (when original shipping is refunded in full or was never paid)
• Promoted listings fee
• Any applicable additional final value fees for not meeting performance expectations

For managed payments sellers

You are not eligible for fee credits in any of the following situations:

• You issued a partial refund to the buyer

Yet again I rest my case!

I used the refund flow for a partial refund to resolve an issue with buyer (buyer VERY happy) - BUT opted in no reduction in fees -  not opted in you get a reduction in fees!

Simple, innit!?

[lcocs2]

UNDER T&Cs : For sellers not activated for eBay managed payments
you do get a fee reduction if "you initiate a refund through the refund flow"

However, under managed payments it appears the rules have changed . . .

[redwick1]

If you do a full refund through a dispute and deal with it without ebay stepping in then you get your fees refunded and no defect on your account but you do not get a refund for partial refunds. That has not changed