What would make you change your mind

[upthecreekyetagain]

Following on from CD's thread what would make you change your mind about the way you currently intend to vote in the forthcoming referendum - or if, like me, you're on the fence would make you decide one way or the other.

For me I'd definitely vote out if it entailed monetary union - I'd definitely vote in if the EU accepted real democracy by having a two house setup similar to the US Congress and Senate with elected representatives capable of introducing new law.

[evoman3957]

When the initial vote / referendum was taken to enter, some 40 odd years ago, it was called the "common market" , with the idea being free trade among its members; with no Import / Export duties or taxes etc. etc. There was no need for it ever to progress any further than that. Mutual defence was covered by NATO and the use of a single currency, although unnecessary, could be seen to facilitate trade ( no need for currency conversion or charges for such )........although this particular fact hasn't impeded the UK too much in its trade dealings.  It has now become SO bureaucratic and petty ( with rules on bananas, Pork Pies & an untold amount of other pathetic tamperings ) that it has totally morphed into something completely unrecognizable from its original concept. So, to answer your question, its gone too far to be able to change back enough; to warrant me voting to stay in.

[5129frederick]

One minor correction - when Ted Heath got us innto the Common Market it was called the European Economic Community.  My God, they couldn't get rid of that middle word quick enough, could they? .  Less than a year later they were just calling it the EC!

[astrologica]

Nothing.....absolutely nothing...would make me change my mind on how I intend to vote. I only have to look at how the EU treats it's poorer members to know how I feel about it. Just look at Greece....back last year they were on their knees, brought down to begging level because the EU cooked the books to allow them to join when they didn't really meet the required criteria. The Greeks humbled themselves and accepted EU terms to stay in. And now, the EU Masters have the gall to criticise Greece for not protecting their Mediterranean border to prevent the migrants landing in Europe. What did the EU do prevent all those migrants arriving on Greek shores? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Indeed...Frau Merkel actually invited them in. But now the enormity of their folly has dawned on them, and they haven't a clue how to stop these migrants coming. So they start getting heavy with Greece. 

I can't help fast forwarding a few years to a time when all those people who have arrived in Europe, and those yet to come, will have gained citizenship, and every one of them will have the right to come here to this tiny island to live and work. It is madness...utter madness, for us to stay in that corrupt, failing, totally inept organisation. So I won't be changing my mind.

[dark_castle1]

absolutely nothing will change my mind !

OUT

[al**bear]

Nothing

always will be IN

[mustard-tree]

(When the initial vote / referendum was taken to enter, some 40 odd years ago, it was called the "common market" )

If I remember correctly, it wasnt a vote to enter.

The Government took us in, then held a referendum on whether to stay in or not

The question that needs to be asked?

Is the large amount paid into the EU worth it, or is it like an overpriced insurance policy that rarely pays out.

[023mjc]

I voted NO 40 years ago, and I'll vote OUT this time.  Nothing would change my mind.

[evoman3957]

I bow to somebody whose recollection is better & probably more accurate than mine, I was young( ish ) and working all over the World at that time. I wasn't particularly a political animal ( not that I am now either......really ) and I remember my Father insisting my Mother vote the same way as him ( that's how much times have changed ). I do remember the phrase "Common Market" being bandied about, probably making a lot of people think that it all sounded quite reasonably and logical to join.  Like all Trees / Monsters / Dictators......they grow from small beginnings, when they look pretty innocuous. If you don't keep a rein on some things in life, you'll pay a price for your complacency in the end..........that's all I know.

[cee-dee]

A bit of refreshment on European Community history might be of interest so look here:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

[evoman3957]

Interesting..........although I can see why a globe trotting 20 year old, would find it so forgettable One thing's for sure, it shows why following the crowd isn't always the safest option...........the " Pied Piper of Hamelin " comes to mind.

[vamo48]

I voted no 40 years ago, and have never met anyone willing to say they voted yes.  It's out of control, unelected bureaucrats are telling us what to do, and they don't know what they are doing.  Most of our politicians have their own agenda.

[artful_dodgings]

The sooner we are out of this ridiculously expensive, bureaucratic, and restrictive Gentlemen's Club, the better. As far as I am concerned, it's not even open to discussion.

[upthecreekyetagain]

Thankfully it is still open to discussion and with the polls indicating an IN vote I would have thought you would be all in favour of discussion.

I think the replies on this thread so far from both sides demonstrate that the referendum is not going to be decided by those who have already made up their minds - it seems that nothing would persuade them to switch sides.

Personally I'm hoping there will be some real information made public.

For instance if there is an out vote what will happen to the millions of EU immigrants currently in the country and who will decide?

What about the Common Security Defence Policy which essentially was originally controlled by NATO but is now under the control of the EU.  In practical terms which body will control the forces committed to the defence of Europe and will UK forces be included?

If there is an in vote then how strong are the 'guarantees' regarding the Euro and the security and independence of Sterling..  How far towards a Federal Union of Europe do politicians foresee us moving.   Will politicians see an in vote as a mandate for even closer union?

Hopefully there will be some intelligent discussions and not just sound bites.

[mikes*corvettes]

If the out vote wins will we be allowed to have a clean break or will we still be liable for the agreements that we have committed to already and still have to pay the millions of pounds a day that we are currently paying.

Or are we going to be in the same position as Greece when the people voted not to accept the EU's austerity proposal which was then totaly ignored by the goverment.

[upthecreekyetagain]

If the out vote wins will there be calls for us to also withdraw from the Council of Europe and withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights?

[evoman3957]

There's a couple of interesting potential problems that leaving would throw up. Apparently the vote in Scotland to remain in, is between 60% to 70%; so Nicola Sturgeon is saying that if the rest of the UK vote to leave, it would go against the wishes of the Scottish people. She has therefore said that she would hold another referendum, on Scottish independence.......and with this behind her, I think this time she'll get the result she wants. That would mean that the common agricultural policy would apply to Scotland but not England, Wales or Northern Ireland. The same would apply to the Fisheries policies, with I presume England, Wales and Ireland going back to the old 12 mile limit and exclusive fishing rights in their own waters, but the waters around Scotland being subject to EU regulations. Scotland would then have to apply, independently, for membership of the EU and raise their own Taxes and make their own laws, as a totally separate country. One Country that would love to see us leave, would be Russia ; now there's a real problem lined up for the future, with their belligerent and expansionist attitude. The UK is one of only 2 nuclear powers in the whole of the EU, if we left ; that would leave France standing alone with the EU's entire nuclear deterrent.......and you'd have to be pretty stupid not to realize that it IS a deterrent. History has also shown us, that France has never been any good at standing alone against anything.............food for thought indeed.

[mustard-tree]

Maybe I am being a bit sceptical,  but I think that the result will be just what the government wants

They cant do much about the stalwarts who know which way they are voting, but they can go after the ones who are swayed by opinion polls.

These can be manipulated to get the result that suits the government.

Look at this example from Yes Prime Minister regarding conscription.

[Sir Humphrey demonstrates how public surveys can reach opposite conclusions]

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think there is lack of discipline and vigorous training in our Comprehensive Schools?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think young people welcome some structure and leadership in their lives?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do they respond to a challenge?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Might you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?
Bernard Woolley: Er, I might be.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes or no?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Of course, after all you've said you can't say no to that. On the other hand, the surveys can reach opposite conclusions.

[survey two]

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Are you unhappy about the growth of armaments?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think there's a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think it's wrong to force people to take arms against their will?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Would you oppose the reintroduction of conscription?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: There you are, Bernard. The perfectly balanced sample.

[0125arwen]

Nothing could change my vote, out.

[evoman3957]

There's no doubt, we're going to have to sort it out; each of us for ourselves.  We're going to have to be well aware of the manipulation and scare tactics, employed by both sides. There's a mass of facts out there, regarding the EU and if and how it has affected our every day lives. There are also facts about how it has affected businesses, both good and bad and knowing those will also help us make informed decisions. One has to remember, that diplomacy; perhaps even politics in general, deals in shades of grey........there doesn't seem to be a right and wrong any more......no black or white. Yet in this referendum we are being asked to vote along those very lines, that the politicians don't deal in any more IN or OUT.......BLACK or WHITE.......RIGHT or WRONG !!

What we must remember, is that ALL mistakes can be mitigated; sometimes even corrected...........just because mistakes are made, they don't have to be compounded.  The thought that, if we leave, the EU wouldn't trade with us any more is ludicrous......they NEED us....for many reasons. In this game of bluff and brinkmanship, that politicians play, sometimes walking away and calling the bluff of others; gets you almost everything you want, It's a question of who needs who the most. As everywhere I look these days, so much stuff we have and use is made in China; I don't see why we can't negotiate a trade deal with China by ourselves. Can you honestly see China saying we don't want to deal with you, because you're not part of the EU....that's ridiculous....they'd take our hands off to sell us stuff.......as would America, Brazil, India and every other Country in the World; that wants and NEEDS customers for their goods. Don't let the decisions you make in life be made out of fear, it's not like we don't know what life is like outside the EU; we were there before.......remember........in fact, through history, WE'VE  been the ones that ruled / dominated / carried / defended, Europe, NOT the other way around.