Fraudulent returns

[blue_bear]

So in the last couple of months I sold quite a lot of phones and I had a small supply of brand new sealed phones. With these, I've had a nightmare on eBay. Some of them were bought by genuine buyers but around half were by fraudulent buyers. They would receive the phone ans instantly open a return with reasons that sound genuine (e.g. I bought as a birthday gift but they didn't like the colour) to something completely ridiculous (e.g. liquid leaking from the phone). Obviously with accepting returns, I took them back but I've recieved:

1. A buyer bought two sealed 15 Pro Max's and returned the original boxes but with the fake android copies in them and he released the boxes. The revealing was really tacky and I could see something was fishy and I opened them to find out. I instantly called him about further actions of coming to knock on the door for the phones. He admitted and said keep the phones and that he would close the return of which he did. So I kept the money.

2. A buyer bought a new phone and it was to a parcel pick up point (local shop). He opened a return and returned something at a shop which was roughly 2 hours away and it was a bag of sweets. (EBay refunded me this after I got in touch).

3. Similar to above number 2, however it was sent to Toolstation as confirmed by the Royal Mail customer advisor. I went to toolstation and got the parcel and it was the tracking number I had on the label provided to him but my details were removed and replaced with Toolstation. I sent a special delivery return label and the label was a 48 tracked label to tool station with the tracking number from the special delivery. It was delivered on the 48 hr delivery timescale, but this wasn't enough for eBay and they closed the case in the buyers favour. EBay said they can only give a one off gesture but other than that, sellers have to have an allowance for theft etc. I am since waiting for Royal Mail to send to me an email stating it was sent to a different address for eBay to refund me.

4. a buyer has bought a new phone and he sent the return and I know it's fake as he bought to an address in Birmingham and is returning it via a post office in Newcastle area and his number is not active. I waited nearly 10 days and the parcel was stuck in the system without movement and Royal Mail would have considered it lost. I received a notification to refund the buyer (eBay automatically generated), I contacted customer service and they have opened a case to allow the return to be delivered. What I found was that yesterday, the tracking showed 'accepted at a parcel shop'. Meaning the customer has posted it twice now at a post office / parcel box. I know it won't be the phone, but what more evidence does one need to convince eBay that this is clearly a scam. Coincidentally, a buyer bought a cheaper phone and sent a return request on the day of delivery. She had it ordered to a flat in East central London. She posted the phone back at the very same post office as this number 4 case. I am still waiting for both of these 'phones' to turn up. I know this was done by this groups so that I would complain to eBay about this and eBay would think I am the one lying and close in the buyers favours.

5. A buyer bought a new phone and again a return request of day of delivery. He sent the 'phone back' and I called him and messaged him and he eventually said that his account was used and that most likely the parcel being returned is empty. He closed the case. I received nothing as the label was tampered with. Royal Mail confirmed delivery to a different address.

6. a buyer bought a new phone £1300, put a return request, didn't post back for over a week. I contacted him and said I will come down if I don't get the phone as I know what's being done here. He said, 'don't worry, just send me another label, I'll sort this one out for you'. Like what is even going on here.

7. There's more, but I'm tired and you get the point.

I sold over 200 phones in the past couple of months and I had no issue. But in the times that there is an issue and unfortunately with higher valued phones, eBay does not really take a proper stance and I didn't know that they had a policy of providing a refund to the seller as a one off and no further chances unless there is evidence. This is not good enough and I immediately halted all sales. Making £10-£40 per sale and all of a sudden, some thieves make a scam and take you out of pocket of £670-£1300 each time, then eBay needs to do something. Most of the time, the scams were by newer accounts which I didn't really anticipate as I didn't know about this loophole for buyers. But since then, every order I get, I have many doubts and I have cancelled orders and 2 of the negative feedbacks received are by cancelled sales.

eBay has been dissaapointing when it's easy to spot scams. I have a personal account in which I buy high value items for resale, it's mind boggling to think that I can return some stale chips instead of the £1000 item and eBay will just give me a refund.  

[blue_bear]

Another interesting case is an international buyer in Spain, who ordered a new phone to a hotel in Madrid. He said that he's staying there for holidays (his location is Argentina).  I was not comfortable and asked for some ID ( I don't know what that woul clarify anyway, it was just to see his response and how he would react). He said why would I need anything and that he's been on eBay for years. He has, but in the past 12 months, he bought one thing and it must be something very cheap as it was a large eBay business shop that doesn't sell high value items. I sent the phone anyway and it got to Madrid. It showed as being out for delivery a few days ago and then it said parcel has been kept for a future date and that the delivery will be due on the 25th April, which is 7/8 days from now. That was suspicious and I had enough and I called UPS in trying to get back the parcel regardless of what his story might be. I requested a return to sender and they said that it will be returned, but I need to keep an eye on tracking to make sure. They also advised that it was the buyer that had rescheduled delivery to the last date possible. What a coincidence, about 2 hours ago, I received a message from this buyer saying that the parcel should have been delivered yesterday and is confused with the tracking and to find out what is happening. He wasn't replying to my messages promptly earlier and all of a sudden, he is inquisitive. What a waste of delivery cost, but my main aim is to just get back the phone.

[blue_bear]

The best thing you can do when you are unsure of a sale to a dodgy looking buyer is just one thing - cancel the damn sale. Protect your assets and money. Ebay even removed a defect because I cancelled a sale and put the reason being as out of stock (at this point, I didn't know that these would give a defect). The advisor just confirmed whether it was a sale I wasn't comfortable going ahead with and I replied calmly, 'yes exactly that' and he said fair enough. Business as usual. 

[blue_bear]

The first post, case number 1 - the spelling errors - the words should be 're-sealing' and 're-sealed'.

[plpmr]

just two general observations -

Leaving false positives for buyers can seriously damage your account.

And,

Using the buyers real name in feedback is a serious policy violation.

[*help_no_brakes*]

Never post on here when you are tired.

If you choose to violate feedback policies you should not post with your selling account to complain about others.

Never admit that you buy to resell on a private account.

[blue_bear]

I buy items on a private account if i find a deal to then sell on my business account. Not sure what the ruling would be on this, but thanks for your 2 cents. Myabe, I should create a separate account to post on the forum like you.

Also, its good to know the rules about violating feedback policies, which I wasn't aware of, but that's the least of my worries and not something i'd pay attention to. If it really was a serious violation, many many accounts would have action taken against them. 

Also, you mentuoned that I should not post to complain about others if I violate feedback policies. The two really don't have a connection, by doing one, doesnt stop or prevent my rights with the other. Nevertheless, I didn't mention names or accounts. 

[4_bathrooms]

You're selling high-risk thief magnets so problems like the ones you describe are entirely to be expected. 

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@blue_bear wrote:

I sold over 200 phones in the past couple of months and I had no issue. But in the times that there is an issue and unfortunately with higher valued phones, eBay does not really take a proper stance and I didn't know that they had a policy of providing a refund to the seller as a one off and no further chances unless there is evidence.

---

Which is perfectly understandable; eBay are not going to continually underwrite your business' losses. If the buyer returns a different item you need to file a report with Action Fraud, obtain a reference number then use the link at the bottom of the return case that states "Report a problem" ensuring you include the Action Fraud reference number in your report to eBay. A private seller will be reimbursed by eBay in such a case but there will be a point where eBay will expect a business to protect and insure themselves against such losses before they become a "risk to the eBay community".

Your best option for selling internationally -if you think that's a good idea - is likely eBay's Global Shipping Programme without offering your own separate international shipping options. That way your only responsibility where shipping is concerned is getting the item to eBay's global shipping hub in Lichfield. If the item is subsequently lost, delayed or damaged in transit it isn't your responsibility to resolve the matter. However, this still allows international buyers to open remorse and/or "item not as described" return cases which the dishonest could still abuse.

[c1tizen_4]

I have reported a seller for leaving a false positive a week ago or so and ebay didn't even bother about it until now, I'm sick and done chatting with their agents and their scripted, fabricated answers.

For the past weeks I have reported two buyers for abusing ebays return policies and ebay buyers protection once I'm a private seller so as long as the item is as described it respects the consumer law, still all I got until now was the classic, standard notification email stating they are reviewing my report.

For a nearly 30 years old online platform, ebay customer service and policies are everything but great.

[vinylscot]

@c1tizen_4 

"I'm a private seller"

Are you sure?....

[c1tizen_4]

Have you got any proof that I'm not ? Why wouldn't I be one ? Because of my standards or detailed listings ? Are you that well informed about the UK laws when it comes to running a business as a sole trader ?

[c1tizen_4]

But just because you are in Scotland and I'm in England and you are trying to be funny behind a screen, like so many people, let me tell you something.. Don't judge the book by the cover.

I have had ebay accounts for the past 25 years in four different countries by now. I have just requested for the oldest one I got by now registered on .com to be deleted, next, if ebay doesn't change some of their policies really soon, like they had to do the past two years on different levels, I'll shut down this one as well.

You picking on me because I have a few smartphones for sale, when I'm just testing the waters for the past year, while wondering if I should start a small online business on a 30 years marketplace ? Give me a break please.. there's so many private sellers on ebay with 6/12 months old accounts selling so many electronics bellow the average market price like hot bread that it's daunting.

There's a reason why lately ebay has been advertising for the 'new rules' in place when you sell goods above a certain threshold etc.. waste of my time.

Farewell.

[abrahamtoast]

You have fifteen mobiles listed at the moment, and have sold another five recently.

You don't get to "test the waters" - you either are a business seller, or you aren't.

I know what I think.

Everyone else is doing it is no defence. You are trading illegally, attempting to withhold legal rights from potential buyers, failing to pay the correct level of fees, and attempting to gain an unfair advantage over the many thousands of properly registered business sellers, who are operating honestly and legally.

[c1tizen_4]

I have fifteen mobiles selling ? where ? I have a single unit of each selling under different types of listings, buy it now and 3 day auctions for tte same product/item. If it's wrong, why is that I'm allowed to do it for ages and the ebay AI or algorithm checking the listings is allowing people to do so ?

Who says I can't test the waters ? Can you point me out the law stating so or that if I decide to go sole trader that I'm not still on time to register like so with HRMC ?

I have sold five ? Define recently please ? and at least one was returned abusing ebays money back guarantee and buyers protection once the smartphone is fully working and because of the negative feedback left by an 'experienced buyer' I have been tormented with queries and had to remove it from my shop to avoid more nonsense and ignorance. Moreover, that same handset which I had granted the return in advance even before the buyer decided to return the item, but also the refund prior to get the product back to my hands, once I don't need to scam anyone and I was sure the smartphone was fully working, if I didn't have granted the refund and waited to check the product integrity, ebay would have been forced to refund me again because I can prove my 'innocence'.

Who said everyone else ? Withhold what ? Failing to pay correct fees ? Do you think that I got here without ever paying any fees to ebay over 25 years time ? or that I mind paying fees if I had to start from scratch ? Or pay HMRC whichever tax I have to if I must ?

Leave the honest sellers out of the equation please, you are just all fired up trying to protect your friends business and your own 'private seller' business. The all conversation started because the fraudulent buyers and the feedback policies etc., you are just trying to manipulate the subject in your favour.

I have been talking to ebay customer service almost every week several times a week by now because of all the craziness going on with the ebay buyers protection policy and the way things are managed.. ebay had to reverse their decision over my last appeal and I was granted a full refund.. I'm still talking to action fraud because of that once I'm still not happy with the way the all situation was managed by ebay.

Do you know which is the big problem here ? Is that people like you and your friend are still dealing with ghosts back from the middle ages and are quite egocentric and so used to deal with all sorts of less honest 'traders' that it's hard for you to believe that there's still honest people alive all around.

Last but not least I got to praise you and your friend for the nice business you got going on over there.. I'll be dead by now if I didn't have my music.

Farewell.. for good.

[vinylscot]

OK, you appear to have fifteen mobiles listed at the moment. If it is fewer, and you are listing them multiiple times in different formats of listings, you are breaking yet more rules, and really shouldn't be bringing attention to the fact that you are doing so. (as an aside - what are you proposing to do if the same phone sells twice, say, during the night when you are away from your PC/phone?)

It's easy to understand why people jump headlong into selling on eBay. They are often unaware of eBay's rules and their legal obligations at the outset. The more savvy sellers learn as they go along, taking note of comments and advice given in places like this.

I'm sure you may well have a nice little business here, if you put everything in order, and I'd wish you well if you did so.  However, if you don't, believe me, it will come back to bite you, sooner or later.

[c1tizen_4]

@vinylscot

I'm only taking the time, to one last time address your polite query/reply because I don't do to the others what I don't like being done to me, meaning just ignore you, etc.

I would like to mention that you are only critizing my actions as a seller but not noticing the way I have been harassed, insulted, etc., as a buyer, and there's at least one recent positive feedback left on my profile that shouldn't even be there accordding to the ebay feedback policies.

It's pretty clear that we got different interpretations on the subject, nontheless, I can't understand why is that you are saying that I'm breaking the rules with my listings if for many years I have always been allowed to have them like that, and I believe it's pretty clear that they are the same item just looking at the images, detailed description, etc. Would you please be so kind and point me out the rule(s) that justifies your statement ? I'll remove the listings right away if they are unlawful and your interpretation is right.

Next, I'll bring it to the table because I have nothing to hide and I'm ready to pay for the consequences if I must, besides and like I have said before, I have been talking to ebay customer service online support many times for the past months, addressing all sorts of issues, and nobody said a word about my listings whatsoever, but feel free to report me if you wish.

If the same phone sells twice, which never happened, ever, in 25 years time of selling on ebay over different countries, I politely apologise and explain to the buyer/customer what just happened ? Is it such an hard matter to solve accordding to your customer service experience ? Because my experience tells me that so, happens quite often in many different ways even at high street retailers, innit ?

'It's easy to understand why people jump headlong into selling on eBay. '

That's If you take that I'm a new seller just because this account it's only ~4 years old, for which most of the time was solely used to buy and not sell.

'The more savvy sellers learn as they go along, taking note of comments and advice given in places like this.'

Do you really think 'savvy' sellers are coming first place to the ebay community taking notes on how to use loopholes and exploits ? I don't think so but I'm with you on that when it comes to disclosing some intel on the internet regardless of the place just in my case was completely unintended.

Just for the record and to let you know, I have already decided to give up on setting up any sort of business in England/UK and on ebay, marketplaces and alike.

Wish you and your friend the best of lucks for your business and the lovely music you sell.