Buyer returned wrong item from outside UK

[clive333biker]

Olympus camera 166409204997 Returns case 5327661781

I sold a camera (listed uk buyers only) with a stated serial number, on 31st Oct '23, but it was bought by a buyer in Georgia, Eastern Europe, with a delivery address in Finchley, London. This was of course a shipping company, in order to get around UK buyers only rules.

On 24 Nov '23 I receive a returns request from Georgia, with the goods having arrived allegedly faulty. I disputed this with Ebay, as the goods had travelled outside the UK and I should now NOT be responsible for their condition. Ebay however, sides with the buyer and issues a Returns label, goods to be returned to me by 14 Dec '23. 

Goods WERE NOT EVEN SENT by that date, so Ebay closes the buyers Returns request on 14 Dec '23 . 

On 30 Dec '23 the return label is activated in Finchley and on 2 Jan '24 a package arrives when I am away and within 48 Hrs, the buyer has appealed the Returns closure, Ebay agrees and refunds the buyer AT MY EXPENSE. 

Upon my return on 5 Dec '24, I open the returns package and find a DIFFERENT CAMERA WITH DIFFERENT SERIAL NUMBER and also missing items that were in the original listing / package I sent. Plainly the shipping company has muddled goods/original suppliers either on the way out or on the way back from Georgia, via opening multiple packages and amalgamating into one large package for onward despatch.

I submit a Fraud Report but Ebay stonewalls all my requests and reasons for a refund eg. Wrong Goods returned and Goods received Outside stipulated shipping time limits.   

Ebay customer service says that they allowed the Return request to be re-opened because the buyer was able to provide tracking details before the case was closed on 14 Dec '23. 

Plainly this is UNTRUE, as the returns label serial number proved posting did not take place until TWO WEEKS LATER at 1028hrs on 30 Dec '23 at Greenford Mail Centre !  

Ebay customer services also said that they would not accept any verification from me via photo evidence that the wrong goods had been returned as..quote " due to our platform being completely online, we have no way of verifying the condition the item has been returned to you. " Ritesh C. Ebay customer services 0728hrs 5 Feb '24.

This means I could have had a piece of wood returned to me instead of a different camera and the buyer would still be refunded !

Apparently if I had enhanced seller protection, I could PRETEND the correct camera had been returned but in a lesser condition, upon which I would only be liable for 50% of a refund.

It seems the stipulations in the Money Back Guarantee for buyers can be ignored and customer services will still refund them providing something turns up at some point in a returns package on the sellers doorstep !  

To say I'm seething about the whole process is an understatement and Ebay customer services expects me to just suck it up !!! 

I have about 1400 transactions, 100% favourable feedback and more than 19 years loyal membership and it seems to count for nothing. 

I have all correspondence on record if anybody at Ebay can help me with the issue.

I am absolutely disgusted with the way my case has been treated after presenting all the dates and facts to customer services and receiving in reply, only platitudes in very poor grammar and links to regulations that don't really apply. 

The word "condone" is one they do not understand - I received the following passage a couple of times....

"I have checked the case details and I want to re confirm that your report was successfully registered and our back end team has already begun a investigation on this. Be assured, appropriate action will be taken on their account. I want to inform you that we totally condone this kind of behaviour on our platform and want the platform to be fair for both buyers and seller's."

[douglaspuglas]

From what I've read the buyer should not be covered by the eBay MBG for a not as described return if they used their own freight forwarder.

Your buyer did that but you need tell eBay that the buyer voided the MBG by using their own 3rd party freight company.

You might have to explain to CS what the MBG policy is.

If you need it here's a link to get a callback or chat  https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/eua?id=5275&mkevt=1&mkpid 

And here's a link to the MBG policy and a screenshot of the relevant part.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-poli... 

[clive333biker]

You certainly hit the nail on the head when you said I might have to explain to CS what MBG policy is......

You would think they would know Ebay Returns Policy back to front but that is clearly not the case.

I have had extensive communications with them on this case and each message I have sent in reply has been answered by a different operative with obviously little grasp of the situation. All I've received have been platitudes and faux empathy. I have previously quoted the name and parcel ref. from the third party freight forwarder in Finchley, but it was ignored.

I'm hoping someone from Ebay will pick this up, as surely most profit comes out of commission from us sellers, not the pesky buyers !

If we all packed up and sold elsewhere, Ebay profits would be down the swanee !

Thanks for your advice, I'm not giving up yet !

[4_bathrooms]

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@clive333biker wrote:

I sold a camera (listed uk buyers only) with a stated serial number, on 31st Oct '23, but it was bought by a buyer in Georgia, Eastern Europe, with a delivery address in Finchley, London. This was of course a shipping company, in order to get around UK buyers only rules.

On 24 Nov '23 I receive a returns request from Georgia, with the goods having arrived allegedly faulty. I disputed this with Ebay, as the goods had travelled outside the UK and I should now NOT be responsible for their condition. Ebay however, sides with the buyer and issues a Returns label, goods to be returned to me by 14 Dec '23. 

---

You're correct; pointing out eBay's own policy to them should have resulted in eBay closing the case. Out of curiosity, was the return label's collection address the Finchley freight forwarder's or the buyer's Georgian address?

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@clive333biker wrote:

Upon my return on 5 Dec '24, I open the returns package and find a DIFFERENT CAMERA WITH DIFFERENT SERIAL NUMBER and also missing items that were in the original listing / package I sent. Plainly the shipping company has muddled goods/original suppliers either on the way out or on the way back from Georgia, via opening multiple packages and amalgamating into one large package for onward despatch.

---

It is equally likely to be a deliberate fraud on the buyer's part.

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@clive333biker wrote:

I submit a Fraud Report but Ebay stonewalls all my requests and reasons for a refund eg. Wrong Goods returned and Goods received Outside stipulated shipping time limits.   

---

When you say "fraud report" do you mean you contacted Action Fraud and supplied eBay with their reference number/report?

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@clive333biker wrote:

Ebay customer services also said that they would not accept any verification from me via photo evidence that the wrong goods had been returned as..quote " due to our platform being completely online, we have no way of verifying the condition the item has been returned to you. " Ritesh C. Ebay customer services 0728hrs 5 Feb '24.

This means I could have had a piece of wood returned to me instead of a different camera and the buyer would still be refunded !

---

It could even have been a piece of wood with nails in it...(don't ask).

If you look at the bottom of the decision in the case is there a link to appeal eBay's decision or to report a problem? I can't see the camera in your sold items nor can I find it by the item number you originally posted; how valuable was it?

I have no idea why eBay didn't protect you in accordance with their own published policy from the outset once their stated policy was pointed out to them. Annoyingly, it is often necessary to point eBay's own policies out to their customer service agents but once pointed out they normally do follow the policy. If all else fails you would certainly be able to take your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service but if there is still a route of appeal via eBay you'll need to try that first.

[clive333biker]

Thanks for your interesting and informative reply, to answer your questions :-

The returns label (which I retain) was Royal Mail's showing the collection address as the Finchley freight forwarder's, omitting the firm's name of course.  Also, a reference given by the buyer to put on the label for original despatch of the goods, included the initials of the shipping firm with a ref. number, and is all on record because I queried it's significance in a message to the buyer before despatch.

To find the camera in my sold list it's necessary to look at last years sales.

When I reported fraud, it was NOT to Action Fraud outside of Ebay, but to the "Report an issue with a buyer" section under  "Request Assistance" on the Customer Service page. I note that the report has now been removed from that section despite it still being slightly less than the 90 days allowed for items to show (reported 5 Jan. 24)

However, at the foot of the same page under Request Status, the report is still there - reproduced below, but I have deleted the buyer's name in case it upsets anyone.

                                                                ----------------------------------------------------

Report an issue with buyer

Olympus MJU I / 1 35mm Film Point & Shoot AutoFocus Camera with Original Manual

Order number: 04-10734-31631

Item ID: 166409204997

Date sold: October 31, 2023

Buyer:

Status:

Report received

We'll look into this and take action if the buyer is breaching eBay policies. For privacy reasons, we won't disclose the outcome. If you feel the buyer is taking advantage of the eBay Money Back Guarantee, make sure to ask us to step in and help if you haven't.

You can also stop buyers from bidding on or buying any of your items. Just add them to your blocked buyers list. They'll be blocked until you remove them from the list.

Request details:

Removal request reason: Returned a completely different item or an empty box

Additional info: For some reason Ebay has already initiated a refund to the buyer of £63.70, but the camera returned recently is not the listed one allegedly faulty. The camera listed clearly showed the serial number 7185547 and was sent with its original instruction pamphlet and soft case. Faulty camera returned has serial number 5598997 and was packaged with no pamphlet or case - pictures can be supplied upon request.

                                                                ----------------------------------------------------

By this time 5th Jan 24, CS had already refunded the buyer and charged my account. I blocked the buyer from future purchases of course.

Having already been unsuccessful with the argument of the buyer not being in the UK for a UK-only listed item (which I double checked) I resorted to the Wrong Items Returned argument as above and had pictures to prove - it got me nowhere.  I  have therefore been unsuccessful in getting my sixty seven pounds and five pence back to date, depite numerous appeals.

Perhaps I should try an Action Fraud report and see how that goes ?

[4_bathrooms]

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@clive333biker wrote:

Perhaps I should try an Action Fraud report and see how that goes ?

---

The window where this would have worked was when you received a different item back. At the bottom of the case there would have been a link that stated "Report a problem"; you would have provided the reference number/report from Action Fraud at that point. Obviously, AF wouldn't have done anything themselves apart from supply a reference number and maybe a report but as eBay are regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority they have a responsibility to protect private sellers against fraud. The provision of an AF reference number appears to be key to triggering this protection when a different item is returned.

You might want to try filing a report with AF and supplying the reference number and anything else they give you to eBay in an appeal. If that doesn't convince eBay to credit the sale amount back to you then you have the Financial Ombudsman Service available as a last resort. The FOS should adjudicate in your favour as eBay failed to follow their own published policy from the outset but the ombudsman route is likely going to be a long process. I'd suggest exhausting all routes of appeal via eBay first and obtaining a "final decision" before going to the ombudsman.

[rjwilmsi]

As 4_bathrooms says, submit a report to Action Fraud, then contact eBay to explain that you have been the victim of fraud so are requesting to be reimbursed under eBay's seller protections. eBay will ask you to upload a PDF confirmation of the Action Fraud report.

As the original return case was closed at the time the returned parcel actually arrived, you didn't have the normal opportunity to inspect the returned goods and report the fraud within the case at the normal time.

eBay shouldn't have allowed the return as use of a freight forwarder voided the buyer's protections per eBay policy, but eBay offshore customer service staff don't properly understand all the policies. I'd forget about that because what is more material now is the fraud, not that the return was allowed.

[clive333biker]

Thanks again, I have now submitted a report to Action Fraud, and passed to Ebay the ref. no. together with a request for reimbursement, so we'll see what happens, if anything.

[clive333biker]

Thanks for the advice, I have indeed made use of the suggestion in your second paragraph along with the AF report, so fingers crossed !

[pillarboxred]

Write to your MP and say that eBay is aiding and abetting international fraudsters by allowing them to get round your bar on foreign purchasers for high risk items. It makes me sick reading how you have been treated. 

[*vyolla*]

Personally, I'd be arguing this with eBay on the grounds that the buyer wasn't covered so should never have been able to return this via eBay in the first place, as per @douglaspuglas post, and would just stick to this argument because it's all there in black and white on their policy page. 

You may need to get in touch with somebody more senior or the Dublin eBay CS.

[clive333biker]

Yes, the stonewalling continues - it would appear fraud is not penalised unless it's reported within certain timescales  ?

It looks as if I'll have to go higher up the chain as you suggest !

Hi Clive,

Thank you for contacting ebay Customer Service regarding the Return case, 5327661781. I appreciate your patience and effort contacting us. I understand you reported this to Online fraud. Allow me to check on this.

• We’ve reviewed your request and are unable to open an appeal for you as case was closed in the 4th of January
• Once a case is closed, you have 30 calendar days to appeal that decision. That would be until the 3rd of February

Having a standard timeframe to appeal allows us to be consistent and fair amongst all our members. In the future, make sure to appeal any case decision within 30 calendar days if you have new information.

Thank you for contacting eBay Customer Service, you are a valued eBay member. 　
 
Kind Regards,
 
eBay Customer Service

This email box is not monitored, if you would like to get in contact please follow this link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/home

[THREAD ID: 1-622MRBFK]

From: < clive333biker
Sent: 3/1/2024 11:03:49 PM
To:
CC:
Subject: Fees for private sellers

Enter your question/concern
I have been a victim of fraud and request that I be refunded under Ebay s Seller Protection.
I have reported the matter to Action Fraud
Case Ref. No NFRC240306504274.

My allegation is regarding the Return case 5327661781 for item 166409204997 Olympus camera, which was closed on 14 December 2023, so when the returns package arrived on 2nd January 2024 containing DIFFERENT GOODS to those originally supplied, I had no opportunity to report the fraud in the normal way.

Send a copy to my email address.
on

[clive333biker]

The snag is Ebay CS are not open to reason as they've already closed the case, as below.

I'll have to go higher or resort to the Ombudsman I suppose.

Thanks everyone !

[clive333biker]

Many thanks for your empathic comment !

[*vyolla*]

Ah, that's a shame, I didn't realise that the case was closed 4th January.

[clive333biker]

Yes, returns case reopened on 4th Jan on buyers appeal, decision made to refund buyer and case closed, ALL IN 24 hrs. I get billed for the refund the day after on the 5th when I return home from being away and open the returns package to find the WRONG goods with items missing........ that's why I'm seething about the whole thing, I can live without the £65, it's the bleedin' injustice of it all !

[grimerking]

I don't know if this applies to eBay disputes, but there used to be (I think) an £800 charge for any disputes that went to the Financial Ombudsman. This was charged to the financial institution and worked as an incentive to find in the compainent's favour - e.g. a customer complains about £200 in unfair charges, the bank refuses to refund them, the customer goes to the Financial Ombudsman and the bank is charged £800 no matter what the outcome. I learned about this due to an ISA that I held with Interactive Investor. It had been 'free' and they introduced charges and an exit penalty. 

In order to raise a case with the Financial Ombudsman, you (at that time) needed to request a 'Final Response' from the financial institution. Making that request was a signal that you were about to go to the Ombudsman and an £800 charge was imminent. At that point a lot of banks would have a change of heart and make a 'good will' payment. I think thousands of Interactive Investor customers all did that at the same time and the company backed down and allowed everybody to leave without penalties. 

I'd suggest sending one last message to eBay requesting their 'final response in regards to this matter'. This will, at the very least, show the Ombudsman that you've attempted to resolve this amicably and eBay are intractible. With a bit of luck, they'll also get stung with an £800 charge for opening the dispute. 

[grimerking]

The case fee is actually £750. 

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/businesses/resolving-complaint/case-fees

When we do and don’t charge

You won’t need to pay a case fee for the first 3 complaints against your business that we deal with in each financial year. From the 4th complaint onwards, we charge a case fee of £750.

If a case does need to be investigated, it becomes a chargeable case, regardless of the outcome.

Most businesses have very few cases referred to us, meaning that most businesses don’t pay any case fees. For businesses that do pay case fees, the cost involved is likely to be much less than the legal costs of defending the case in court.

[4_bathrooms]

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@clive333biker wrote:

Yes, the stonewalling continues - it would appear fraud is not penalised unless it's reported within certain timescales  ?

It looks as if I'll have to go higher up the chain as you suggest !

---

It looks like you will have to go the ombudsman but first you will need to obtain a "final decision" from eBay. The important thing to note is the ombudsman will look at eBay's terms and conditions, their published policies as well as all their communications with you; these will all be factors they will use when making their adjudication.

You need to write to eBay again stating all the facts in order (and dated) from the initial purchase until the case was closed in the buyer's favour. In particular, you will need to point out the evidence you provided showing the buyer had used a freight forwarder and had therefore forfeited their money back guarantee protection - make sure you provide a link to the relevant section of the policy. This part is important as eBay's own policy states they should not have entertained the buyer's request once they had been provided with evidence the item had been forwarded outside of an eBay programme. When the case was originally closed there was almost certainly a link to appeal the decision with a time limit for doing so - your complaint will centre around the fact the case should not have been entertained in the first place and eBay's failure to follow their own published policy is the reason you suffered a loss.

At the end of the message make sure you request eBay's final decision on the matter; once eBay state it is their final decision the ombudsman won't ask you to obtain one in order to proceed with a case. This will also let eBay know you intend to take the matter up with the ombudsman - it's rather similar to sending a "letter before action" to any other business.   

[clive333biker]

Many thanks for all the advice which makes perfect sense - what I need to do now is follow it and get all my threads archived in case they should go missing....    I must have spent many hours drafting and re-phrasing my communications to them in an effort to explain to them where they got it wrong, but their replies are all similar (and from different reps each time) and obviously come from a book of standard responses.

I've quite enjoyed the prospect of making them see sense though, because my case has merit, just lacking success so far !

Their view it would seem, is because they have refunded the buyer (rightly or wrongly)  - hell can freeze over before they admit any error and return my funds too.

I'll be sure to post any positive advances in due course - thanks again folks !