Authenticity Guarantee - Totally unaccountable and appeal process is Not Fit For Purpose

[chronopolis365]

I recently sold a watch that happened to mention in the description that the receipt was included as part of the sale, along with booklets and the original warranty card.
I packaged everything, including the receipt, which was placed inside a Watches of Switzerland booklet, and sent it for Authentication. As always, I made a video of my packaging process, right up to sticking the label on the package, clearly showing everything that was included in the package and the condition of the watch.
The watch passed through authentication and was delivered to the buyer, who contacted me to say that although he was very happy with the watch he did not receive the receipt. I immediately sent him a PDF copy of the receipt together with the video footage of me packaging the paper version.
Regardless he raised a return request on the basis that what he received did not match the description. I was concerned that something untoward was happening, so I immediately contacted ebay to tell them that I had packaged the original receipt and that I had video footage of doing so. I explained that I had sent a PDF copy and the video footage to the buyer and sent ebay a copy of the PDF. I explained that I couldn’t see where I could attach the video footage. I was advised that I’d be contacted prior to the outcome of the Return request. After a 4 week delay, without any explanation and without contacting me at all, Ebay accepted the return.

I appealed immediately I was notified that the return was accepted. The so called "Appeal" process consisted of a phone call from an Ebay representative who then transferred me to the Authenticators.

I tried to explain that it was the Authenticators decision I was appealing against but was transferred anyway.

When I got through to the Authenticator dept. I asked how the watch passed authentication if it didn't match the description, I was told that the receipt would not have formed part of the Authentication process.

I pointed out that the Authenticators are supposed to ensure that the item matches the description in all aspects to avoid this very situation, and as the lack of receipt was the single reason for the return, clearly a mistake had been made during Authentication. I was told that it would be impossible to check every piece of paper included in all the packages they receive. I then asked, how could they be so sure that the receipt wasn't in the package I sent if they didn’t check everything and was told that CCTV footage had been used. I explained that the receipt was in the WoS booklet and could have therefore been missed and that I had my own video footage of the packaging. (Freeze frame of my video is attached here). I requested the opportunity to compare their footage with mine and was told that this would not be possible for security reasons. I offered to send my footage for consideration, but this was also refused for no apparent reason. I pointed out that in any dispute, it is normal and correct for all sides to be allowed to provide their own evidence and interrogate counter evidence. The representative went on to say that this was not a dispute, but a return request. Even though he’d called it a dispute throughout our conversation. I told him that I was disputing the outcome but was told that unless I had anything further to add he was closing the appeal. I tried to argue that this could not possibly be the whole Appeal process and requested details on how to escalate the dispute. I was told that his decision was now final, and no escalation was offered.

I’ve now had money deducted from a different account but have not received the watch as I am on holiday.

I do not want to accept this return as, firstly, I won’t get back exactly what I sent Ebay and secondly,the watch has been out of my possession for 4 weeks, nearly 6 by the time I get home, and I have no faith that the Authenticators have checked the watch correctly.

I really can't comprehend that in this day and age there would be this level of arrogance and unaccountability. As a Seller we pay a fee to Ebay for a service, which includes Authentication. If that service is faulty or lacking in integrity there must be a statutory and transparent complaints process that doesn't start and finish with the same entity you are complaining about.

Ebay’s own Authentication T & Cs clearly state:

“The Authentication Partner will inspect the item within two (2) business days of receipt at the facility and the authenticated item will then be sent to the buyer as soon as possible. This check will include inspection of the watch for authenticity, and for accuracy against the item listing.”

- In which case how did they Authenticate the watch and contents if they didn’t find the receipt? They clearly didn’t check the package I sent them thoroughly and would not have any real idea if the receipt was contained or not. CCTV could not pick up a receipt that was placed in a booklet.

“eBay assumes the delivery risk from the Authentication Partner to the buyer and any items lost or damaged at the Authentication Partner facility.”

-I have video footage that the receipt was included so, if the buyer did not receive it, it must surely have been lost in authentication.

So, my question is where do I go next with this?

There must be complaints process, but the Ebay website appears almost deliberately obscure when I look. Every click seems to take you back to the “Contact Us” page.

Is there a high level escalation that I can follow?

Is there an external body that I can go to, such as an ombudsman?

Has anyone had a similar experience?

I look forward to hearing from someone.

[four_mid_able]

Taking a video when packing things doesn't prove anything as far as Ebay is concerned as it doesn't prove what is shown in the video is what was actually sent.

To their mind any seller could easily have sent something completely different (people do you know).

To prove what you sent you would have to have a video showing an unbroken stream from packing to delivery which is obviously not possible.

All you can really do now is refund the buyer upon return and relist it without the paper guarantee.

The authenticity procedure doesn't require it as they only authenticate the item itself and possibly the packaging.

[four_mid_able]

Just to add ,bearing in mind i'm possibly being over cynical but that only comes from experience and reading a lot about online scams.

So ,who told you their was no receipt ?.

Your buyer i guess ?.

How do you know for sure that what your buyer is saying is actually true.

For all you know your buyer may have an identical fake version of your watch and needed a receipt so they could sell it on as genuine to some unsuspecting ,er, person.

"yeah it's genuine geezer ,corse it iz ,i got tha receept ere innit loike".

It happens.

Some buy genuine things just to get the receipt and / or packaging because they know they can send it back without ,get their money back and use what they've kept to sell a fake.

Even high end pawn shops get duped.

[papso22]

I think the Authenticity 'service' just adds another layer of risk for the seller, despite the so called 'seller protections'.  Ebay will always look to cut their losses and protect themselves, and they have complete control over the final decision.  We give them this control in the user agreement. 

In your case they are saying that the receipt was not integral to the item description so they didn't check to see if it was there.  Your buyer thinks differently.  I can see both points of view, but ebay will always have the last word.

[pg_kicks]

I'll start with the negatives;

The video proves only that at that moment that everything was in the box, you could then open the box and remove said item(s), this is what eBay will say. You have learned the hard way that there is no such thing as no returns on eBay as even if you are a private seller the buyer can just use INAD and its 99.9999% going to go in their favour.

No a maybe slight positive, I use AGM every day on my listings, granted a lot less valuable then the watch you sold but what you need to do is accept the return back then when you recicved it report it as either missing something or not the item you sent out, eBay may force you to refund anyway but you still need to report it and then phone AGS and speak to a manager and explain the full case, I had a case where a pair of shoes was returned, passes AGS and then when I resold them they failed for being worn, AGS stickers the box so they could tell all of the dates, in this instance I was told I had 2 options, I could either sell them as used (I'd get less) or send them to eBay and they would refund me the full amount, I obviously took that option. You would need to speak to a manager especially at that level of value though, hopefully you get the watch back and the buyer just changed their mind and used INAD as a bypass for the full refund.

When you spoke to eBay was it the team in the UK or Ireland as if it wasnt then you need to get hold of them and speak to a manager, also get everything in an email after the call.

[chronopolis365]

I accept that the video doesn't prove that the receipt was packaged, but it's better than just my word on the matter. It would also play an important roll if Ebay ever felt the need to release the CCTV footage that they claim prooves the receipt was absent.

You'd also have to look at what we're talking about here. It's not that I'm not trying to bluff Ebay that I sent a a 5k watch but instead packaged a stone. It's a paper receipt for goodness sake.

What you say about scammers trying to get hold of a genuine receipt to validate a fake may well be true. If I get the same watch back in the same condition, fine, but the issue is 1. I cannot have any faith that Authentication have undertaken the necassary due diligence when validating the return. I could be getting any old heap of rubbish back. 2. Money has already been snatched from my account and I haven't received the watch yet. 3. What chance of a succesful appeal when Ebay have already repaid the buyer.

[chronopolis365]

Yep, buyer said receipt wasn't included despite Ebay having authenticated what i'd sent. Nevertheless, had Authenticity done its job properly I wouldn't have this mess to sort out.

Not to mention the fact that I now probably have one strike against my account for selling something not as described.

[chronopolis365]

I understand what you’re saying, and Logic would dictate that if the buyer can successfully return an item based on the absence a the paper receipt which is purely ancillary to the main item, bearing in mind I did send a PDF of the receipt, then the Authenticator is duty bound to check for the receipt's presence prior to confirming authentication. Otherwise, Ebay wants to own both sides of the argument.

[the-nutwood-collection]

Have you told the buyer that the receipt is inside the Watches of Switzerland booklet?  He/she may not have looked there.  

I had an order for wool and a length of ribbon.  I folded the ribbon inside the packing slip to keep it flat.  The buyer (a regular customer) told me that the ribbon was missing.  I told her where it was, and she said she'd thrown away the packing slip - and obviously the ribbon with it.

Had I received a package with something missing, I'd examine all the contents.  However, she didn't - just couldn't immediately see the ribbon, chucked away the packing slip and messaged me, never thinking that the packing slip could be hiding ribbon in its folds.

[purveyor_of_tat]

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@chronopolis365 wrote:

....the Authenticator is duty bound to check for the receipt's presence prior to confirming authentication...

---

It's a difficult one, as said. 

Shoes and watched have different FAQ's/T&C's. 

Will I receive the original packaging with my purchase?
Yes, if the seller has included original packaging as described in the listing, all components will be sent to you.

Sounds reasonable and sounds like it applies to you. 

How does the return process work?
...Within two business days of receiving the item, the authenticator will inspect to confirm that the item returned matches the item originally sent to you by verifying the authenticity and condition including any original packaging or accessories (for clarity, this includes the item’s box where applicable).

This seems to be the caveat that applies to you - the receipt is something they're not interested in. 

From post #1:

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@chronopolis365 wrote:

“eBay assumes the delivery risk from the Authentication Partner to the buyer and any items lost or damaged at the Authentication Partner facility.”

-I have video footage that the receipt was included so, if the buyer did not receive it, it must surely have been lost in authentication.

---

Granted, it's vague. But, I think this means 'items' as in 'parcels', not individual components. i.e. the seller has tracking proving delivery to the AG centre but the AC centre have lost the parcel. 

---

@chronopolis365 wrote:

...I do not want to accept this return as, firstly, I won’t get back exactly what I sent Ebay and secondly,the watch has been out of my possession for 4 weeks, nearly 6 by the time I get home, and I have no faith that the Authenticators have checked the watch correctly....

---

Is the concern about the value of the item? Would it still be as valuable without the receipt?

There is anecdotal evidence from these boards that buyers returning items within the AG process can have the return request declined - don't worry about something that hasn't happened. 

[zoomingmouse]

''Money has already been snatched from my account and I haven't received the watch yet.''

Have Ebay already refunded the buyer, or is the money just on hold?

[chronopolis365]

I did advise the buyer where I'd placed the receipt, I also sent him the video.



Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2

[chronopolis365]

The return was accepted without any information being requested from me.
It took 4 weeks from the return request to ebay notififying me that it had been accepted.



Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2

[chronopolis365]

Buyer has been refunded and funds have been taken from my account.



Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2

[*knight-rider*]

Nearly £6k, i honestly don`t know how you guys sleep at night!

This is why i never advise people selling items of that value and any site, never mind Ebay, but if you did/do, i would make it collection only for cash/bank transfer on collection.

All you can do now, is wait and prey that`s it`s actually the watch you sent, that you get back, so you can at least sell back on. If it isn`t the watch you sent, you`ll have to take it from there, though i fear there won`t be anything you can do, because even if you concidered legal action, the buyer will simply say he sent the watch back and you won`t be able to prove different. Yes you can say `this is what i received back, not my watch`, but any legal expert will probably say it`s just as easy for you to turn round and say he didn`t return it, as it is for him to say he did 🙂

Let us know how it goes please.

[papso22]

I thought returned authenticated items had to go back through the authenticity people who checked it was what they originally authenticated?  So the return of a used, broken, or just wrong thing shouldn't be possible.

The return of the right thing, in the right condition, but missing something the authenticators don't consider parf of the description, is entirely possible. 

[zoomingmouse]

The item should have been returned by the buyer to the AG. 

It's my understanding that AG should then send it back to you, unless the buyer has sent something else back, which would not marry with the fact they've been refunded, unless they've just been refunded without having to return... surely not though as the watch passed the AG process, it's just a receipt that's been disputed.

I'm a bit concerned about the escalation that you mention in your OP as it reads like it was the appeal, although I may be interpreting it incorrectly, which I hope I am.

''The representative went on to say that this was not a dispute, but a return request. Even though he’d called it a dispute throughout our conversation. I told him that I was disputing the outcome but was told that unless I had anything further to add he was closing the appeal. I tried to argue that this could not possibly be the whole Appeal process and requested details on how to escalate the dispute. I was told that his decision was now final, and no escalation was offered.''

Did you have the option to respond online to the actual open Item Not As Described case?

If so, did you, & what happened?

What does it say now when you open up the case details?

Have you been given any information about the return of your item, or it's journey - tracking number etc. or messages from Ebay?

[chronopolis365]

An update for anyone interested.
The watch has been returned, via the Authentication Center which has passed it as the matching the item they initially received.

However, due to my newly developed paranoia I took certain steps to ensure the integrity the unpackaging, incase there was a major issue.
Firstly, I insisted that the delivery driver print his name, sign and date the package. Secondly, I took it to a friendly retailer in Hatton Garden, where I unpackaged everything under the watchful eye of their CCTV, also recorded it myself.

All of the above is crazy, I know, but this is the level of mistrust I have for this s@*t show of an operation.
Thankfully the watch itself is fine and essentially as I’d sent it. Clearly the original purchase receipt was not in the package, but we knew that would be the case. However, the clear plastic bezel protector, which was despatched in perfect condition, came back broken.
A small thing some might say but, given the unsatisfactory nature of this whole episode, quite significant and extremely annoying.
The process now for a seller reporting an INAD is not at all clear. Can anyone out there help?

[bennotbill]

There's an interesting authenticity disagreement going on over on .com

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Returns/Can-t-return-fake-sneakers-that-passed-Ebay-Authenticity/td-p/... 

[pg_kicks]

That thread is a bit pointless, the only picture hes posted is just a fault in manufacturing.

I've seen some shockers from Nike, they've forgot to add the swoosh on, put the jumpman upside down, labelled uk 6 as a uk 10, forgot to add insoles/laces, even seen some clothing with the arm holes stitched up. If that happened in UK though the buyer could just open an INAD and they'd get a free return and a refund.

@chronopolis365 with regards to reporting the buyer, you just need to go to orders, the on the order the drop down box you can report the buyer for misuse of the returns (I think thats the wording) I'd also phone CS and get put through the AGS and let them know its been returned different to how it was sent, you might get somebody decent (I've found the best person in sneakers thankfully) and its a godsend once you find somebody who takes pride in their work.