re: Amazon panorama prog

[who_1976]

Just wondering what people thought about the Amazon Panorama programme on BBC1 the other night?

[ryansbits]

"judging by your comments, you'll fall for it"

What else do we have to go by other than a manifesto when deciding whom to vote for? The problem is that non-voters get accused of apathy rather than indifference. 

I'm toying with the idea of just writing an obscenity over my ballot paper, they have to count void votes - I won't be labelled as apathetic then. 

"Labour nearly ruinined online trade and sent  huge companies to Jersey to explot a now closed vat loophole"

Only if you want to re-write history. The UK is in the European Union and obliged therefore to add VAT to certain goods and services, the Channel Islands is not. The VAT free threshold on goods under £18 from outside the EU was introduced in...... 1984. When our government was.....

Removing the LVCR from goods imported from the Channel Islands but keeping it for goods coming from the rest of the world (what the government has done) will just result in consumers importing products from other non-EU countries. It protects the CD, DVD and Computer game industry (where regions are implemented) but all three are going digital now anyway. This only serves to push more customers to buy directly from China, from places like eBay, where there remains no VAT applied to low value goods. 

The ultimate result in less revenue for Royal Mail and more revenue for China Post. The Labour government in 2006 concluded that they wouldn't abolish LVCR for the Channel Islands (which I reiterate, was a Tory introduction) because of the damage it would do to Royal Mail. In 2012 the Tory party abolished LVCR for the Channel Islands because they don't give a damn about the revenues or profits of a company that they have now sold off. 

Only fair that I point out the reality. 

"Labour opened the borders for European worker to come and work on the cheap" 

Errmm..... nope. It was a Conservative government which initially led us into this second coming of the USSR in 1973, it was a Conservative government that signed the Maastricht treaty in 1992, and the current Conservative government is about as Europhile as any of them. When we joined the EEC the promiment opposition to the free trade and free movement of labour area were Labour politicians - particularly Michael Foot and Tony Benn. Their opposition was largely based on the fact that British workers would be undercut, and they were right. The public ignored them. Real socialists, the people who have nothing to do with this new neo-liberal centre ground Labour Party (people like Bob Crow) are still against the European Union on this basis. If you are a conservative mate then you have a very socialist viewpoint there (Arthur Scargills party is Eurosceptic for this reason too), the 'free market' ideology sees high unemployment as a good thing - because it drives down the cost of labour. 

"So anything the Labour party have to stay positively on the subject, I would take with a very large gain of salt"

You seem to have it in your mind that I am a Labour voter / member, I am neither. I will probably be drawing a large **bleep** on my ballot paper - but that doesn't mean I want to see you rewrite history about the European Union or the LVCR.

[star-action-figures]

But when this treaty was signed and the VAT threshold set, there was very little trade like we started to see at the end of the 90s.

The internet was not dreamed of when this treaty was signed. If you wanted a DVD or cheaper priced item, you would you to HMV or Woolworths for it. With the rise of the internet, these and other companies went to Jersey to avoid VAT. The then labour government allowed it to happen. In the miux of all this, Amazon and ebay rose in the UK, and then Amazon went on to rule the market as eBay floundered. So while the Tories may have signed the trade deals, it was not them that sat back and allowed the newly formed internet to be used to abuse tax laws, in a way that was near impossible when the treaty was signed. Personally if I am to blame anyone, I would blame the party that allowed a law to be abused, rather than one that set the law in different times.

As I said earlier they are all as bad as each, but the issue at hand was these super centre and working conditions were allowed to flourish and where encourged to florish under the previous government. Anyway, we are off topic, As far I am concerned, the program not show Amazon up in nearly as bad as light as you suggest it is IMO, and thats why if it is as bad as you say, it was an opportunity lost. And if is it that bad, then I agree that the Tories should be held accountable for allowing it to continue, but from what I understand moves are afoot to address the issue of corporation like eBay, like Amazon, like Starbucks to avoid paying UK taxes, partically VAT. Time will tell.

[ryansbits]

star-action-figures, I presume that you sell your items overseas? 

And enjoy the benefits that are offered by almost every country in the world which see that no duty is paid on your exports under a certain value?

I mean.... when somebody from America purchases one of your action figures for £10, you appreciate the fact that this will typically fly through customs as under threshold with your customer not getting an invoice for that purchase? 

Or are you advocating protectionism, a world where we are all penalised for trading with eachother? I don't think that protectionism would be a very good thing. 

The Channel Islands was not special in this relationship, it had the same relationship as every other non-EU country. Now it is disadvantaged against every non-EU country because it is the only one which we don't give a low value VAT exemption to. 

I'm not sure how the treaty really relates in any way to the fact that countries have reduced trade tariffs over the past thirty years, because the EU saw trade tariffs abolished almost completely between EU member states..... of which the Channel Islands is not one.

I think that you are being heavily critical of something which you and I both benefit from. In my case immensely, as I don't pay import VAT on most of my stock (beneath the threshold) and I or my customers from overseas don't have to pay any export/import duty when sending an item.

You appear to have double standards. I mean, it is fine if you want your overseas customers to have to pay 15% or 20% extra for each of your products, but it would result in less sales - you don't really have much to gain from that. 

You call the Channel Islands VAT thing a "tax loophole", only it was never a loophole and you are showing a poor understanding. A VAT free threshold on imports into the UK is applied evenly throughout the non-EU world, and almost every other country in the world has a similar system.

Now if I buy something for £10 from China I pay £10, and if I buy something for £10 from the Channel Islands I pay £12. 

Only..... the Channel Islands is part of the UK, and China isn't, one contributes to our GDP and one doesn't. I can go and work in one without a work permit, I can't in the other. 

[ryansbits]

I agree that we need to tackle these big American corporations who don't pay any corporation tax on their UK profits, by the way. It is more of a corporation tax problem than a VAT one though. 

It was only low value stuff being shipped from Jersey and Guernsey VAT free. What are Starbucks delivering from the Channel Islands?

It will never change because both of the major parties are funded by the same wealthy CEOs and corporations who benefit from these huge grants and tax schemes. Most of our politicians come from big business families, or banking families. 

If you think they are ever going to act in your interests then you are wrong, they look after their own. 

[sheilaw1234]

if you want to work that many hours to make a living, working for a pitance thats ok, but most people would sooner work in a fairer environment, less hours so they can see there family more, and not end up on the scrap heap by wearing them selves out, if you think Uk should go the way of taiwan with everyone working long hours for a pitance thats your opinion..

theres nothing wrong with hard work but not for 12 hours a day..

ok if your young but not as you get older

[star-action-figures]

Completely agree. Tories, Labour, the other ramble, all as bad as each other. But if I had to pick one, I would pick one, it wouldn't be labour!!!

[star-action-figures]

---

@sheilaw1234 wrote:

if you want to work that many hours to make a living, working for a pitance thats ok, but most people would sooner work in a fairer environment, less hours so they can see there family more, and not end up on the scrap heap by wearing them selves out, if you think Uk should go the way of taiwan with everyone working long hours for a pitance thats your opinion..

theres nothing wrong with hard work but not for 12 hours a day..

ok if your young but not as you get older

---

Its everyones choice what they do. I work silly hours at this time of year for about 6 weeks. Rest of the year, its far far less, and usually only 4 days a week.

12 hours a day! A little long, but arent Amazon's 10.5 hours in shifts of 4 days? I may be wrong, but if they are thats 42 hours a week, 4 days on 3 days off.  I don't think the UK should go the way of Taiwan, but neither do I think 42 hours a week is excessive! If you think it is, that's your opinion. My opinion its not.

[sheilaw1234]

If the conditions are truely that bad (and I am not suggesting they are not) just in my opinion the program did not show this, then surely some government department should be involved. 

these the same law makers who allow amazon to have off shore tax havens to avoid paying tax?

how many politicians are there on the boards of these comapnies (hardly gonna bite the hand that feeds them)?

and remember tony blair, funny how hes done so well since he left his government office, what she worth now 40 million?

getting paid by all these big companies he turned a blind eye too when he was prime minister?

they say he charges £100,000 per speech, used to holiday with russian oligarths when he was in office?

don't bother to look to politicians they know where their breads buttered, they'll turn a blind eye to anythink as long as in benefits them personally.

[sheilaw1234]

tony blair used his stint in office to get well connected with the rich and powerful, and now hes being rewarded for it. I don't blame europeans coming to the UK (im born in UK) to seek a better life if i was in there shoes i would be doing the same, wasn't america founded on imigration?

When i was younger (im 45+) blue collar workers were losing jobs due to decline in the manufacturing industry amongst others, to robots and large machinery in factories etc, now i feel its the white collar workers who are losing there jobs due to technology, computers, better software, fewer people needed to operate systems , and people either through choice or necessity not retiring at 55-65 like they used to staying in there jobs, when i left school at 16 few people stayed on into further education (college / university) now young people are staying on until 18, more are staying on into college and uni, and when they come out more of them qualified than ever where are the jobs for them?, i see lots of low paid service industry jobs like hotel work, warehouse, shop etc but after coming out of uni with your hons degree/ masters etc do kids really want that at £6,31 an hour on a 0 hour contract?

imigration may be filling jobs but at what level?, at what jobs these service industry jobs?

i feel for the youngster, there not all lazy layabouts, but i feel a lot are disparing at what is happening, they deserve better than this, its bad enough them coming out of UNI with £30,000+ of debts, but wheres there future?

the government talks about youngsters should be putting into a pension, but with what?  how can they when they sign up for agencys on 0 hour contracts? how can they afford to put down a deposit for there own home?

i

[sheilaw1234]

i worked in a warehouse over the xmas period and wasn't given a choice, they told me what hours to work, when to work etc, the choice was do it or get sacked, i was on £6.31 an hour, there was no overtime pay as such it was £6.31 no matter how many hours you worked.

and the hours you work depend on the work your doing, sitting in an office 10+ hours a day no problem, 10+ hours a day walking up and down a warehouse (not for me), i think the biggest gripe ive got is the 0 hour contract.

[joe_bloggs*]

Amazon? sounds a bit like this place: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor

[bankhaunter]

The hours a person works are not that important when compared to how stressful the work is.

Treat employees as some form of organic machine, take away all autonomy and security then you have a recipe for stress, poor work and irregular work patterns.

I used to work a 12 hour night shift 5 nights a week and it was a matter of pride that the night shift would produce more than the day shift, we did it because we wanted to not because we had to, treat workers properly as an asset to the company and they will work well.

I was also among those on the day shift who after their 12 hours would do a cleaning job for a further 3 hours.

[al**bear]

Asda warehouses are much the same, agency staff, treated like draft animals

[who_1976]

Yes,I agree with you-hardwork and tam effort is rewarding for both employee and employer-Amazon has a well honed business model and it's profits show this-for example the kindle has changed the face of reading books (although it has also closed many book shops-who had falling sales and increased rents maybe)

I do think that you can't judge a companies employee conditions but just one programme-the BBC has it's own agenda too. But what did suprise me was the point system the had-I think it is just unfair and unrealistic and yes you are right is it legal?

For an example you may be sprain your ankle-happens a a lot in warehouse environment particlarly when you are moving quickly-I think people who work for Amazon might not say anything to avoid losing their jobs but comprimising thier health instead.

I should add that I am not a socialist or union person but believe this kind of working model is out dated-I mean is this 2013 or 1860??

[sheilaw1234]

Yes,I agree with you-hardwork and tam effort is rewarding for both employee and employer-Amazon has a well honed business model and it's profits show this-for example the kindle has changed the face of reading books (although it has also closed many book shops-who had falling sales and increased rents maybe)

really? if you think working hard for minimum wage is rewarding maybe you should try it!  for the company paying people peanuts and working them like dogs, and avoiding tax i can see how it is. they have a well honed business model ( well yes if you want to run a sweat shop, maybe you should move to talwan i hear the pay 10p an hour over there ill bet there employees working for next to nothing just to survive are very happy and feel rewarded? i have nothing against hard work but in this day and age people should be getting treated better isn't that why unions were introduced to stop these practices. i know unions were too powerful at one time and were ruining the country with there ridiculous demands, but now i feel its swung the other way and workers are being exploited, this is 2013 and people shouldent be worked like dogs.

I do think that you can't judge a companies employee conditions but just one programme-the BBC has it's own agenda too.

well how should we judge it?,  you ever worked in a warehouse?, its hardly that easy to get in and film whats going on? how many programmes do we need to watch on amazon you form an opinion?, i've heard from lots of people who have worked at amazon and most tell me how bad it is.

[who_1976]

Hi,

In reply to your comments-I will add I have worked in warehouses on both a permanent and temp contract from an agency back in the 90's. This was for a major London retailer who is famous for it's only one yearly sale-looking back the conditions were quite good we had a pick list and yes you had to be quick but that's fine and wee accepted it-the manager could be tough but he was a decent guy who had stresses on him from the upper managment-to be honest the job was ok and pay for that time ie )1999 was £7.oo ph.

Now back to Amazon I can only asses to mind that they hold a US type of business model with a clinical opproach to employment-aero hours contracts makes it easier for them to hire and fire at will-in short they hold all the aces. The employee really has little choice but to put up or walk away.  Now does this create good will amongs staff and the outside community -My answer would be it would not.

As a previous post stated that due to these areas industry being closed and not replaced-these areas are job hungry and Amazon like a hawk now this and exploit the situation to the full while also taking large subisdies from the government. They also hold the UK gov to ransom by holding the line if you make life difficult for us we will move to China and no jobs for you!

Now to conclude-is this the unacceptable face of free market enterprise where the profit no matter who small is the ultimate goal and people or just side lines-I think it is but I can't see people stopping there anytime soon.

[who_1976]

I have to admit I used to meet taxi drivers,plumbers, sparkies etc -who regularly work 60-70 hours a week over the x-mas period and even x-mas day-not uncommon.

[bankhaunter]

The difference is that such people have some control over their work.

If everything they did in their work was being controlled by other people watching them work and they were under pressure to do it as fast as possible, it would cause them high stress levels.

[who_1976]

Yes,I agree totally with you-no one can focus 100% on their role if there is constant pressure on you and a general tense environment-it's counterproductive for any business-I know this from personal experience.

[bigbaz1979]

A bit late to this thread, but I thought I would add my firsthand recent experience of working for Evri as a driver. 

I was badly injured in my previous job. I had to take 14 months away from work to recover. I seen the advert for Evri and thought it would be a laugh and pay for some beer tokens whilst recovering from my injuries. 

I applied and days later I was asked to come in for the induction. 

The depot manager sent me an email with a link for directions to the depot. The directions given takes you to the wrong address. 😃😃😃

The induction consisted of showing me how to use the delivery app and then sent on my way to deliver a small amount of packages. 

The depot was filthy. It did have a toilet, but hand soap, hand towels, and toilet roll were rarely available. 

Health and Safety was nonexistent. No PPE other than a hi-viz vest for some of the depot team.  People were squeezing passed lorries and forklift trucks. 

It was a total shambolic free-for-all. No organisation at all.  

The amount of downtime passed on to the drivers was crazy.  If a lorry was late and you were missing parcels from your manifest, the depot manager refused to allow you to leave. If parcels are missing from your manifest you require to be approved in the app. You can't leave. They force you to wait at your time and expense. 

If parcels were missing, often placed in the wrong cage, it was the driver that had to spend time trying to find them.  You don't get paid for this time. 

When parcels couldn't be found and the depot manager let you go, as you didn't scan all the parcels on your manifest that is a failure for the driver. A driver fails their daily targets for events totally outwith their control. 

If a parcel was damaged, torn, or open during transportation, the parcel was still put into your cage. The driver either had to spend time trying to fix the parcel, or they had to reject the parcel. The sorters never made any effort and passed all the jobs on to the driver.  More unpaid time for the driver. 

It was common to lose between 30mins to 1 hour in the depot waiting for lorries, finding and repairing parcels, or waiting on your cage to be brought over to you. 

You can never recover the amount of time lost at the depot. 

A lot of drivers don't even factor this in. They think they are delivering xx amount of parcels per hour and earn £xx per hour. They don't account for the time waiting and working at the depot. 

It really is awful that Evri can pass on their mistakes and downtime on to the drivers. They pass the cost of their mistakes on to the drivers.

THE PAY. 

How this is even allowed to happen is shocking. A few of the routes held by longer serving drivers are ok. I covered these a few times and the rates of pay were acceptable.

However, the vast majority of routes I had the pay was abysmal. It's humiliating and demoralising working hard and getting paid an absolute pittance. 

I was given a rural route. It was actually really good fun. The overwhelming feedback from customers were they were delighted to finally have a good courier. My feedback was really good. 

The app calculates your route and works out how many parcels you'll deliver per hour. It has 5 speed options for the driver to set to their ability. I could manage my route at the fastest setting. 

Despite doing a good job, despite making all the targets on the fastest setting, I would be lucky to exceed £10 per hour. 

Remember £10 per hour has to cover all my expenses of running my car. No holiday pay, no sick pay, no pension contributions, so I have to somehow find money to pay for those. 

Some days when my route was low on volume I earned as low as £5 per hour. When you factor in the large mileage and petrol costs, I actually lost money. It cost me money to work. 

I complained to the depot manager. They just said to do another round. There wasn't enough hours in the day to take another round. I was already working a full day. They also said rates of pay, and rounds, were set by Evri. Not them.

I complained to Evri. Evri told me it was nothing to do with them. Speak to the depot manager!!!!! 

Both my depot manager and Evri were fully aware what I was being paid was completely unacceptable, but neither would help. 

I even approached the GMB Union Rep for Evri. We had a few emails back and forward, but then he fell silent and won't respond.  The Union knows exactly what happens at Evri, but they aren't interested. 

You are sent offers of rounds out in the app. It tells you the parcel rates in advance. I accepted a round and worked it for a few weeks. The pay was fine on this round. Then without notification I was deducted a significant amount of money. 

It turns out Evri decided to reduce the parcel rate for rounds, and then backdated this too.  Without notifying drivers they just grabbed the money out of their accounts. 

This hit drivers hard. You are told how much you've earned on a daily basis. 50% of your earnings go into a pot that you can remove as you please and then the rest is paid on pay day.  You are charged £1.80 each time you release money from this pot. As the pay is so poor a lot of drivers frequently remove money from this pot. 

Drivers had spent money from their pot and budgeted knowing how much they would be paid on pay day. Then when Evri reduced the parcel rates and backdated it left drivers missing £500+ they thought they had earned and budgeted for. It really was beyond cruel. 

Parcels sizes were routinely wrong. It was not a small issue as Evri claim. Every single day the average pay per parcel ended up consistent within just a few pence. Some days there were a lot of large parcels and you couldn't fit them all in your car, but the average was always the same. Evri are clearly labelling parcels to meet an average cost. 

It's too much effort to ask for parcels to be rebanded. You have to measure and weigh the parcel. If you do that for all the parcels that are wrong you'll ruin your delivery performance. Then you have to use the app to apply for every parcel individually. It is very time consuming. The amount of time it takes makes it pointless spending hours to reclaim earnings you should have been paid. 

The turnover of drivers was incredible. Once drivers realise the pay is so bad, and they can't afford to keep working, they leave. There is an endless amount of drivers filling their space. 

This is what leads to the poor service. Drivers don't know their route, they don't know the area, they don't know their customers. 

You don't get paid unless the parcel is "delivered"..  This is why drivers are forced to leave parcels on doorsteps and cut every corner.  If you don't know your route you'll never keep up with the targets. 

Even if you do meet your targets the pay is still abysmal. It is no wonder the service ends up so poor when the drivers are desperately trying to make a little bit of money. 

Some of my rounds the average parcel pay was barely over 50p. Using a car you simply can't take enough parcels and make deliveries fast enough to claw back all the time at the depot and traveling to your first delivery. 

BONUS PAYMENTS

Despite having 100% on time deliveries and 100% deliveries, and 5 out of 5 ratings most weeks, I never once received a performance bonus. 

The receipt scan was often my failure. These are parcels that were on my manifest, but couldn't be found for me to deliver. Someone else's failure cost me my bonus. 

Then some weeks when my receipt scan was high, I'd get a random negative review. Often I was left questioning if the negative reviews were genuine, or added to stop me getting a performance bonus. 

I never received the new driver bonus to subsidise my pay until I got up to speed.

I was often asked to do an additional round with the promise of a bonus payment. The bonus payment wouldn't materialise. 

SELF EMPLOYED AND FLEXIBLE WORKING?

Despite what Evri claim there was nothing flexible about it. You are allocated a round and it's made clear it is your responsibility that all the parcels are delivered without fail. 

If you are unwell, need time off, or your workload is too high,  it's your responsibility to find someone else to help you.  They say you can use your friends and family to help you. 

You are told what time to be at the depot for your collection time. 

If workload is high there will be demands that you have to work additional days. 

It really is not flexible at all. The depot manager is controlling. 

This self employed nonsense has to stop. Nearly all the drivers are working full time. 

Evri has to be forced to be a proper company and offer their drivers benefits and conditions of a real job. It is time they are forced to provide the tools needed for the driver to do the job. Drivers should not be using their own cars. 

RISK AND INSURANCE 

Evri offers a 3rd party insurance top up(that drivers have to pay for) when you are working for them. However, most insurance companies won't allow you to do this. They know if you're only third party and have an accident at work, you'll try to claim off your fully comprehensive policy. 

If your crash your car you are at best insured third party. That means if you crash your car working for Evri you will not have your car repaired. You lose your ability to earn and you have to pay for repairs to your car. 

If you are working for Evri they should be covering drivers fully comprehensive. The driver should not be left risking their car.

I'll bet that the amount of Evri drivers that are actually insured properly is tiny. They can't afford to pay for hire and reward insurance as it's so expensive. 

You have to use you own mobile phone. My phone was ruined. Your phone is constantly on so I ended up with screen burn and very poor battery life. An expensive smart phone ruined.

UNREASONABLE CUSTOMERS

It was always the same customers that were difficult. Customers could makes drivers job easier. 

It is the same customers who are never at home to receive their deliveries and no safe place to leave the parcel.  They would never divert, delay and would wait until their third attempt to take action.  It is impossible to make a living when you deliver first time every time. Having to attempt a delivery three times to the same people all the time costs the driver money. 

Blocks of flats with broken intercoms was common. You can't gain access to their flats and somehow that is the driver's fault. 

People would message to demand their parcels were delivered at a specific time and date suitable for them. Late in the evening, on Sunday, or hold the parcel until they get back from holiday. 

I got a few one star reviews for  things 

1) Stopping on someone's driveway. 

I'm delivering a parcel to your house and stopping on your drive upsets you? 

2) For posting a postabale through their letterbox

Although postables are the lowest paid as you can quickly post through the letterbox, they still expected me to ring their doorbell and wait for them to answer. 

3) People happy with my delivery, but reviewing Evri as a whole. 

4) Not happy with the product they've ordered. 

These unreasonable people cost drivers bonus payments. They are hard enough to achieve without people not understanding they are reviewing the driver, not the product they ordered, or unreasonable demands. 

In the most awful of weathers I've stood at doors for an excessive amount of time. Through their intercom or Ring doorbells I've been asked to wait until they finish their Teams video call, get dressed coming out of the shower,  or watch them finish what they were doing first. 

They expect you to wait on them. We really don't have the time for them to take their time. When they intentionally go slow they are costing us money. Money we can't afford to lose. 

When you realise how bad an Evri driver gets it from both Evri and their customers, it probably isn't so hard to understand why a lot of Evri drivers end up leaving, or treating their Evri job exactly the way they are treated. 

It really is a demoralising job. 

I didn't think the Panorama programmer was bad, but it could have gone a lot deeper. 

Evri need to be stopped from what they are doing. They need to be forced to operate as a proper company with real employees..