What's your answer to this?

[cee-dee]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/calais-migrants-face-catastrophe-153936990.html#3RP7sMo

The situation can't go on?

Not only can the stowaway situation there not continue, the constant flow of people trying to get to Europe and/or Britain cannot continue either.

Those people should be told that there's nothing for them except a life in a refugee camp. They can't become a "normal" member of society in their target country because they can't speak the language and those that get here (legally or illegally) don't seem to want to bother to learn either. They can't do anything useful except work that's already over subscribed so their only work is going to be an exploited modern form of slavery.

They're looking for a short-cut to a way of life that's taken a couple of thousand years to achieve and they're many centuries behind.

It's high time they were "educated" about the facts of illegal immigration and shown what has happened to many who went before them and all efforts should be made to dissuade and/or prevent them starting out in the first place rather than dealing with them en route or at their destination.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

The thing is, over population happened in Africa long before now and was usually resolved by either warfare of one sort or another, disease or starvation and that was nothing to do with climate change.

So, back on topic, it's only relatively recently unwanted migration has become a problem and some questions are, has that been provoked by greater mobility, easy communication and the availability of transport over great distances all coupled with the greater knowledge about the payment of benefits of one sort or another in the target countries?

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Africa is not overpopulated - if anywhere is it is the Earth as a whole that is overpopulated, mainly in the West.  Africa has far, far more natural resources and three times the space per capita than Europe has.  The non EC part of Europe has twice the space per capita than the Eurozone has.

Population has, as you said, been kept under some sort of control via warfare, disease and starvation - the greatest example of that has again been the West.  Without all three factors the above differences would be even greater.

You ask what my solution to the problem is.  Well dissuasion hasn't worked - it's no good trying to persuade those living in the conditions that many of the potential imigrants are that the West hasn't more to offer than they currently enjoy because no matter how hard you make an immigrants life here it will always be better. 

The only real and lasting solution is to make the homes of those in need better so they don't want to come to the West.  Resources that the West have developed in terms of health, education, farming. manufacturing and distribution need to be made available in vast quantities, at a level which will obviously hit the living standards of those in the West.  And that is where the nub of the problem lies.

The West would far rather spend their energy in trying to increase their own already high living standards than help others.  In much the same way as the already wealthy in the West spend their time and energy trying to increase that wealth without concern for the poorer in their society.

Of course token efforts are made, the UK pledges 0.7% of their GDP towards foreign aid, a drop in the ocean yet massive in comparison to many other rich nations.  Even spending that much attracts a lot of criticism and mainly from those wringing their hands about the 'immigration problem'.  How often do we hear the mantra, "charity begins at home", from those opposed to foreign aid?  "We should be spending that money on those in need in this country despite the needs of the poorest here being far less than others in the third world.  As I said earler the people in the West would rather spend what they have on themselves.

So if the West isn't willing to spend what is needed then the only other solution to the 'immigration problem' is for individual countries to use the 'fortress' philosophy.  Increase border controls, higher policing costs to seek out those who have slipped through, changes in the judicial system to allow for summary extradition.  All sounds very familiar but humans are amazingly resourceful and will get round most problems when it is a matter of survival.  When these measures don't work there will be calls for making them even tougher, at a greater cost and so on.

A long rant I know but the only real solution to your question CD is to make the West a place immigrants don't want to come to, not by making the West less attractive but by making the third world a better place.

[cee-dee]

A quick reply, BBL for more.

Overpopulation was controlled by the available food supply, warring and diseases.

In the Old Colonial days..... the various Colonist countries made living better for those they employed but that wasn't good enough. The "locals" wanted the Colonialist out (fair enough, it was their country?) so when the Colonialists "went" what did the locals do? Those with "power" syphoned off all they could for themselves and literally enslaved the people. Various factions grew up, either political or religious and then they started fighting each other..... Which is where we're at now.

[jd.linklater]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Re that bit about climate change from the Pope......

Just have a look at the fossil and rock "records" and see the changes on climate over the eons of time when humans didn't exist. There was no-one burning fossil fuels then.

For climate change look up at that big Yellow thing "up in the sky"................

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10/10 for your observational skills ceedee but less than zero for your logic. By your rationale human beings can't be responsible for the holes in the ozone layer above the poles because nobody lives there lol.

[cee-dee]

Please review your personal comments before posting before you cause another thread to get locked.

The hole in the "ozone layer" is actually shrinking. Ozone cuts both ways, it's both harmful and beneficial and there are many natural ways it's produced.

[jd.linklater]

Ok have it your way, the sun still shines so climate change doesn't exist.

I thought it was high time that other thread was locked, it was getting far too personal and nasty.

[cee-dee]

Right, I said I'd come back with more later sooooooo....... here we go.

Africa may well be big and "underpopulated" but people either can't live or don't want to live where there's "plenty of room" because the areas are inhospitable, "miles from anywhere" and completely lacking in roads never mind services so the areas where people do want to live are overpopulated.

That, coupled with the constant wars being fought with modern weapons fuelled by corruption and distorted religion (!!!) make for an even more unpleasant place to live.

As to helping people, we've tried and what do they do? Take all they can while the going's good then turn round and bite the hands that fed them. Also, when "aid" is given, what happens to some of it? It gets syphoned off by the corrupt and you see it being sold to the very people it was intended to be given to!

I'm sick to death of these mournful TV appeals (often at meal times) by "charities" where they're claiming they've "just come back from........" somewhere. The hard working actual charity "workers" do the work but how much of the money raised actually goes to the people in need and how much gets spent on fine offices, overpaid "managers" with a good living and frequent "fact-finding" missions?

How many of the "poor African countries" have marshalled their people in to building roads with what materials are to hand, dug drainage channels, dug wells, dug simple sewage disposal or organised piped water? Depending on the source of water, you can pump water continuously without electricity. You can generate electricity with various forms of water wheel. How much of that sort of thing is being done in the backwaters of these "poor" countries?

Oh yes, they've got plenty of modern weapons, have plenty of ammo to fire in the air, mobile phones (?), plenty of pick-ups with guns fixed to ride around in but getting off their backsides to do some useful work, no chance.

And what of their politicians who wanted (and got) the end of colonialism? Oh yes, they've got fancy cars to ride around in, got an "army" (minders/thugs to keep them in power) with fine uniforms and weapons, seem able to jet off where they choose and have sumptuous residences and all the services they desire. Do they care for "their people"? No, not a jot.

Now, "their people", having heard about the idiots in the United States of Europe are keen to get there so they can get as much as they can while the going's good...... They don't want to work, they don't want to learn, they don't want to speak the language or adopt to the culture of their target country. NO, they want to form ghettos and stick to their way of life. Given half a chance (or less), they want to make us adapt to them and stupid people over here pander to them. It just can't be allowed to go on.

[******lynda******]

CD your post reminds me....Over the many years of wars and famines in various countries in Africa, I remember seeing, even as a teenager, those people in refugee camps, surviving on foreign aid, sometimes for years. Even years in to living in this way, the women always had new babies that added to the pressure and costs. They tug at the heart strings but I always wondered why they would want to bring babies into the world of suffering.

[******lynda******]

On the other hand, I am always impressed by the wish to learn of the children. They want education. They could teach some of our kids a thing or two about appreciating the chances they get in education.

[electric*mayhem*band]

Hello JD, thought that was you by your elegant footfall. Do you know I must have slipped off into a parallel world and completely missed the 'Glorious Ninteenth', when it was open season for the regurgitation of past threads. Did you manage to bag any ?I really must keep up my subscriptions to 'Huntin', Fishin', and Shootin'.

Oh, and do please start wearing your clogs again. I thought at first it was Cheryl What's-her-name-now, creeping up on me.

[upthecreekyetagain]

CD

Read what you have just written and then where you mention the African politicians substitute them for bankers, Russian oligarchs and the mega-rich.  For those in need sustitute the unemployed, the disabled and the sick.  For the modern weapons substitute mobile phones, the wide screen TVs and the local pub demanded as a right by those who are too lazy to "get off their backsides to do some useful work".

Our country is a microcosm of what is happenning in the world at large. 

Of course their is corruption over foreign aid, yes the cost of distributing what aid there is is far too high, yes to every negative you can think of to excuse not helping those in need - BUT what of those exact same arguments being used when it comes to the health, education, housing of the unemployed, the disabled and the sick of this country? - are you still willing to put forward those same arguments.

How many ditches, roads, railway lines, hospitals etc. etc. have the needy in this country provided?  As for those in the poorer countries not being willing to work, words fail me - most work far more hours, in far worse conditions and for far smaller rewards than anyone in this country.

As I suggested in my earlier posts there really are only two viable solutions for reducing the number of people arriving to settle in the West - help to finance the development of the third world so they no longer want to come or make the West a 'fortress' so as they physically can't - the first is incredibly expensive in terms of the living standards of those in the West, the second expensive in financial, moral, and freedom terms.

Immigration will continue whether you or I like it and the resources of the West will be tested in exactly the same way that parts of the UK has become overpopulated in regards to housing, schools and medical care - not due to overseas immigration but immigration from within the UK by those moving to where the jobs are.  England as a whole has an average of 353 people per square kilometer, the area around Gatwick has 2423, eight times the average.  Kensington and Chelsea show an even greater disparity at around 40 times the average density, Tower Hamlets the same.

People living in those areas didn't build most of the infrastructure nor the housing nor provide the jobs - that was largely done by earlier generations over a long period of time during which millions died due to warfare, famine and sickness whilst mostly living in poverty at a standard comparable to many in the third world today.  If these areas are attractive to our own citizens then it is hardly surprising they are even more attractive to citizens of the third world.

I have no doubt that in less than ten generations much of the third world will have caught up or overtaken the West in economic terms, Brazil and China much earlier.  Without our help though the cost in simple terms of humanity will be huge and may well have a catastrophic impact on the West.

[bookhunter2007]

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@******lynda****** wrote:
On the other hand, I am always impressed by the wish to learn of the children. They want education. They could teach some of our kids a thing or two about appreciating the chances they get in education.

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I agree. However, if reading this thread is anything to go by, the same applies to adults too - Posts #1, #4, #7, #8, #9, #18, #26 are beyond parody. I'm assuming #3 is a parody. Post #19 is just plain vile.

Goods posts #10, #21 & #30 Creeky.

[cee-dee]

Reasoned as ever UTCYA but this country is rich, even "the poor" are rich compared to "the poor" in Africa. The poor here seem to fritter money away and waste what they get.

The roads & etc were built here long ago and Africa has had long enough to do the same particularly when the Colonialists "showed them how". Why have they not made concerted efforts to build roads & etc if they "want to work"?

The poor of long ago over here may well be comparable to those in the "Third World" now but those of theThird World don't seem to want to learn, they want to fight, yes. I suppose they want to learn from our wars and go through the same things?

You can bet your sweet life that if the immigrants here decided to join forces and "rise up", it wouldn't be politically or abiding by any "rules" of decency.

As to it being "attractive to our own citizens then it is hardly surprising they are even more attractive to citizens of the third world", it's the old scenario of seeing what someone else has got, wanting the same but don't want to "make it" on their own patch, they want to take from someone else.

Leaving UTCYA, on another note, I see the wannabe intellectual making personal comments again and I feel that it must be due to the same affliction as that of the hypochondriac who get's every medical book going then becomes an expert on medicine?

[bookhunter2007]

CeeDee, have you read this?

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/confidence/know-seller-community.html

• We believe people are basically good.
• We believe everyone has something to contribute.
• We believe that an honest, open environment can bring out the best in people.
• We recognise and respect everyone as a unique individual.
• We encourage you to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Your comments I believe:

“Those people should be told that there's nothing for them except a life in a refugee camp. They can't become a "normal" member of society in their target country because they can't speak the language and those that get here (legally or illegally) don't seem to want to bother to learn either. They can't do anything useful except work that's already over subscribed”

“Finally, I'd show them video of people in their target country being interviewed and asked what they thought of the hordes of migrants heading for their country and I'd tell them quite bluntly that they were just not desirable as migrants!”

“Now, "their people", having heard about the idiots in the United States of Europe are keen to get there so they can get as much as they can while the going's good...... They don't want to work, they don't want to learn, they don't want to speak the language or adopt to the culture of their target country.”

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Perhaps part of **your** education could be to actually meet some of "these people" to hear their stories and see what they have "contributed".  Here's a good starting point:

http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/asylum_seeker_please_help_me_mr_mole_1_165394

I personally know Mathias, and helped campaign to prevent him being deported.  He's probably done more for this country and local community than every single poster on this thread put together

And whilst you're there, ask Mathias to show you the scars on his back. Only then it might hit home to you why "these people" are feeling their countries of origin.

Would post more but i'm off out to celebrate Father's Day with my lovely Mrs & enfants.

Enjoy your day 🙂

[fallen-archie]

Alternative link just to attempt a little balance 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3655872.stm

And could I also make a personal plea for more Fathers Days.

[astrologica]

That's very commendable, and it's good that that person had support. But he is just one person. There is a far bigger picture here. And you haven't answered the OP's original question.....what would your answer to this problem be? It's easy to criticise other posters words, but can you offer a solution?
Enjoy your Fathers Day.......I wish I could enjoy some time with mine, but unfortunately he is no longer with us.

[******lynda******]

A thought provoked by Joamur on page one.
The trouble with giving everyone say a million pounds and creating equality is that there will be those who sit back, spend the million and end up with nothing and their hands out

And then there will be those who take the million and try to grow it and be generally productive. Is it fair and just that those who toil to grow their original fair share should then have to support those who just lazed about and spent theirs? Inequality is always going to be a fact of life because people's attitudes are all different. Just a thought. I expect to be crushed.

And are those who buy lottery tickets really going to not want to be rich? Or are they going to ensure their winnings all go to raise up those who have less than they have.

[cee-dee]

An old saying (similar to this) is that if all the money in the World was dished out equally at midnight, by noon 90% would be back in the hands of the (previously) richest 1%.

[joamur_gosof]

This is most deff my last post,but to reply to you on the million issue ...well it isn't given to...it's aspired to so if your happy with 30 a week ,then thats all the effort you need to put in,if you want to aspire to the top,then a million is all you can earn (then its capped. IF you spend half a mill on a yatch then you can work back to the million (yoyo) and do that as much as you like.  

The GOV (ha) pot ...holds everyones million and creates (now here is what a gov does....it owns all employment in every sector..yatch makers to electric engineers to farmers to checkout peeps and everyone gets a basic same wage per hour,so if you work more hours you get closer to your pot.

You would never actually ever have to get there at this moment in time as there isnt anything (literal) worth a mill on this planet) by literal I mean literal and not the ITS a MILLION pounds you know so ONLY I can afford it million :

)

What work ? who will doctor farm or mine ???  loads of ifs and buts.

Shed loads of problems to implement vs human nature...annnd thats where education comes into it all...educate the world see .

Will never happen in my life so only path I can see in the current state of affairs (a bit doomy but) same as same as same as with possible wartime a brewing to keep the assets of the world and control thereof  to a manageble level

In the famous words of some potter.....to be or not to be 

Just a thought on how to solve squabblywobbly spinnywinny no need to get undies in a twist 😄

Enjoy the day guys 🙂

[joamur_gosof]

Footnot 

sound s commie doesn't it ... watch out for nazi kgb types taking over the govs haha

[joamur_gosof]

footnote footnote cause I have 1 hour to kill.  I love double meanings lol

equation looks like this.. manage people to fit the assets

but should look like this...manage the assets to fit the people.