What’s happening?

[fallen-archie]

With the destruction of the Colston statue in Bristol it is reported that along with the Rhodes memorial, Churchill and nelson are in the firing line as well as the following:-
The Kitchener Memorial, Orkney
Duke of Sutherland statue, Golspie
“Jim Crow” Rock, Dunoon, Argyllshire
Lord Roberts Monument, Glasgow
Sir Robert Peel, Glasgow
Colin Campbell, Lord Clyde, Glasgow
John Moore statue, Glasgow
Henry Dundas, Edinburgh
William Armstrong Memorial, Newcastle Upon Tyne
Captain James Cook in Great Ayton
Robert Peel statue, Preston
Peel Park, Bradford
Robert Peel statue, Bradford
Sir Robert Peel statue, Leeds
Peel Tower, Bury
Robert Peel statue, Bury
Robert Peel, Manchester
Martin’s Bank Slavery Relief, Liverpool
Christopher Columbus statue, Liverpool
Blundell House, Liverpool
The Leverhulme Memorial, Wirral
William Gladstone statue, Hawarden
HM Stanley column, St Asaph
HM Stanley, Denbigh
Elihu Yale Wetherspoons Pub, Wrexham
Robert Clive, Shrewsbury in Shropshire
Picton Memorial, Carmarthen
General Nott statue, Carmarthen
Thomas Phillips memorial plaque, Brecon
Thomas Picton statue, Cardiff
Henry Austin Bruce, Lord of Aberdare, Cardiff

Are we rewriting history and if so why?

[fallen-archie]

I answer to your question Creeky, of course it was right to remove all references to the Nazis in Germany especially at a time when sentiments were so raw! By doing so has not prevented many on the left from routinely using the term to describe anyone who disagrees with there point of view, and of course there are still plenty of films of events which took place involving Hitler because of advances in technology.
If you compare him to colston that is not comparing like with like, the simple fact is that the slave trade was not considered as abhorrent when it started as it is today, CD is correct to say that it occurred with the collusion of certain tribes, who were largely considered to be savages due to their way of life which was at the time somewhat less advanced than our own. I spent a Christmas in Swaziland and half way through the meal the doors but t open and in came about 20 locals all in tribal garb brandishing spears and chanting and ranting away, I was taken aback at first having never encountered or witnessed this type of behaviour in the sleepy London suburb which was then my home! Can you imagine for one moment what our forefathers would have made during there first encounter? Now before you tell me off I am not suggesting for one moment that the slave trade was anything other than abhorrent, However in those times it was seen as a legitimate business and as such someone was always going to do it without the checks and balances that we have today and of course we also have the benefit of hindsight, Colston was a philanthropist Who benefitted from the slave trade, which at that time was perfectly legitimate, he did much good on the back of his disgusting business and was honoured with a statue in remembrance of his work! I believe that what he did ought to be remembered and put into context for all to see warts and all, likewise Churchill who remains in the eyes of those who actually remember him as a hero But who also committed some pretty unacceptable things in his early life but again as long as we learn from this so be it, what I don’t want to see is a group of statues erected to honour all those who continue to inflict FGM on young girls or seek to marry them off for money before they have even reached puberty or those responsible for grooming young kids for there own sexual gratification, these are the problems that we need to address now not the sins of our fathers because we were neither there nor responsible for their heinous acts, however we should not whitewash them either, tell the whole story that way we can hopefully prevent it ever happening again!

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@dark_castle1 wrote:

If you could point out all the good the nazi regime did either in their own country or across the countries they invaded then a debate could be opened to try and answer your question.

The statues that they want pulled down were not erected because they were solely slave traders but at some point did some good for which they were recognised. 

A question for you now, should the UK government be admonished severely or disbanded for selling arms to other countries as they are promoting wars and killing ?

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As I explained in my reply to another poster you cannot compare honours or public tribute to individuals with those of an organisation.

An organisation, whether it be political, religious or nation based is made up of lots of individuals, some good, some bad and most in between.  Most importantly though the members of those groups change over time.

The actions an individual carries out is all their own and it is right to judge historically whether they should be honoured.  As I also pointed out earlier, whilst many of the statues of slave traders were indeed raised to honour their philanthropic actions it has to be remembered that the money for those "good" deeds came from the vilest of actions.

As regards your question then in my opinion yes this and previous governments should be 'admonished' for their part in the arms trade but as for disbanding then see my argument above regarding organisations - if however a statue was publicly  installed to an individual who was actively engaged as an armed trader then I do think calls for its removal would be justified.

[dark_castle1]

Then may I ask why you are asking posters to comment on the nazi regime when you yourself state you cannot compare an indiviual to an organisation ?

In my opinion your question because of the standards you quote cannot be answered as you are not comparing like for like according to you.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@fallen-archie wrote:
I answer to your question Creeky, of course it was right to remove all references to the Nazis in Germany especially at a time when sentiments were so raw! By doing so has not prevented many on the left from routinely using the term to describe anyone who disagrees with there point of view, and of course there are still plenty of films of events which took place involving Hitler because of advances in technology.
If you compare him to colston that is not comparing like with like, the simple fact is that the slave trade was not considered as abhorrent when it started as it is today, CD is correct to say that it occurred with the collusion of certain tribes, who were largely considered to be savages due to their way of life which was at the time somewhat less advanced than our own. I spent a Christmas in Swaziland and half way through the meal the doors but t open and in came about 20 locals all in tribal garb brandishing spears and chanting and ranting away, I was taken aback at first having never encountered or witnessed this type of behaviour in the sleepy London suburb which was then my home! Can you imagine for one moment what our forefathers would have made during there first encounter? Now before you tell me off I am not suggesting for one moment that the slave trade was anything other than abhorrent, However in those times it was seen as a legitimate business and as such someone was always going to do it without the checks and balances that we have today and of course we also have the benefit of hindsight, Colston was a philanthropist Who benefitted from the slave trade, which at that time was perfectly legitimate, he did much good on the back of his disgusting business and was honoured with a statue in remembrance of his work! I believe that what he did ought to be remembered and put into context for all to see warts and all, likewise Churchill who remains in the eyes of those who actually remember him as a hero But who also committed some pretty unacceptable things in his early life but again as long as we learn from this so be it, what I don’t want to see is a group of statues erected to honour all those who continue to inflict FGM on young girls or seek to marry them off for money before they have even reached puberty or those responsible for grooming young kids for there own sexual gratification, these are the problems that we need to address now not the sins of our fathers because we were neither there nor responsible for their heinous acts, however we should not whitewash them either, tell the whole story that way we can hopefully prevent it ever happening again!

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Archie - you have only answered part of the question I asked and ignored the basis of this thread.

Your opening post asked if we are rewriting history by calling for the removal of public honours to those individuals involved in the slave trade to which many have replied - yes we are.

My question asked if the removal of statues and other memorials to the leaders of the German Nazi regime was justified and if so was this rewriting history.  You have given a very cogent argument for the removal with which I totally agree but have ignored the part regarding the rewriting of history.

In your post you mention some horrible practices and acts and I can only say that if public honours were constructed for those responsible then I think they should be removed and doing so would not be rewriting history.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@dark_castle1 wrote:

Then may I ask why you are asking posters to comment on the nazi regime when you yourself state you cannot compare an indiviual to an organisation ?

In my opinion your question because of the standards you quote cannot be answered as you are not comparing like for like according to you.

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I also asked the question regarding the leaders of that regime - a totally comparable question and one for which you apparently have no answer

[dark_castle1]

Yes they should have been pulled down because at no time did they do anything to benefit society and the pulling down of their statues was conducted at the time when they either surrendered or commited suicide because they could not face their agressors !

You in my opinion seem to compare and condone what the nazis did to what many in past history did when such trades were normal and gas chambers and labour camps were not !

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@dark_castle1 wrote:

Yes they should have been pulled down because at no time did they do anything to benefit society and the pulling down of their statues was conducted at the time when they either surrendered or commited suicide because they could not face their agressors !

You in my opinion seem to compare and condone what the nazis did to what many in past history did when such trades were normal and gas chambers and labour camps were not !

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Quite the opposite!

i do compare what the Nazi's did with the actions of the slave traders but unlike you I condone neither.

[dark_castle1]

I do not condone the slave trade but I do not believe the statue of someone should be desecrated these days for something which was normal in the times we are talking about and at a later date was recognised for some good deeds.

I  still believe you to be a nazi lover !

[upthecreekyetagain]

Jimmy Savile carried out lots of charitable acts and good works and many places were named in his honour together with statues.  When his less palatable behaviour came to light these tributes were quickly removed - quite rightly so.

The same comparison can be made regarding those involved in the slave trade - in no way can any "good" works they carried out ameliorate their other actions.

[dark_castle1]

I see you did not deny that you are a nazi lover !

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@dark_castle1 wrote:

I do not condone the slave trade but I do not believe the statue of someone should be desecrated these days for something which was normal in the times we are talking about and at a later date was recognised for some good deeds.

I  still believe you to be a nazi lover !

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What twisted thought process are you using to equate the removal of statues of mass murderers with that of being a Nazi lover?

i really do think you should apologise for that.

[dark_castle1]

So you must be one of the ones that want Robert Peels and Winston Churchills etc statues removed !

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@dark_castle1 wrote:

I see you did not deny that you are a nazi lover !

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Read my reply again! And then apologise

"

Quite the opposite!

i do compare what the Nazi's did with the actions of the slave traders but unlike you I condone neither.'

[dark_castle1]

Excuse me you are the one who brought the nazi regime into this thread and asked everyone to justify why their statues etc were removed when slave traders doing what was normal in those times were not !

[dark_castle1]

At no point will I apologise to anyone that thinks the way you do as to compare nazis to Churchill and Peel.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@dark_castle1 wrote:

So you must be one of the ones that want Robert Peels and Winston Churchills etc statues removed !

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Personally I wouldn't object to either being placed in a museum where their history can be explained in context - should any politician really be honoured in this way.

I could equally state that you must be one of the ones that would like to see the statue of Jimmy Savile to be reinstalled.