Welcome to the Great British Underclass

[fallen-archie]

I was chatting to a young lady who recently completed her teacher training and this week was inducted into the new Primary School where she will commence her chosen career. The school is multi cultural and located in West Yorkshire, it is a deprived area but by no means as bad as some inner city areas. Despite this around 90% of the childrens parents are welfare dependent. Most of the children have been labelled as having some kind of lerning difficulty reading standards among eight year olds is expremely poor.

The young Teacher who comes from a middle class background with a strong work ethic is the only member of the family not to be following a medical career, she has always wanted to Teach and help young children.

So what was her verdict following the three days?

The majority of pupils appear to have no respect for authority in any form, Gentle persuasion is the order of the day and the children respond with a tirade of abuse and colourful language.Attempts to impose discipline inevitably result in a family visitation where the source of the colourful language is confirmed. The Head Teacher in conjunction with police and the education authority has introduced a code of conduct and special measures to protect staff from irate and often hostile guardians. What is clear is the children are being raised in a manner likely to confine them to state dependence in one form or another and deprive them of the opportunity to escape poverty. 

We have a young, committed new teacher, keen to get on, with talent and the drive to succeed faced with the uncertainty of a career dealing with feral kids and their often broken families who challenge her ability not by interlect but by threat of physical abuse. The Only beneficiary of this sad situation is Jeremy Kyle. 

Why is it that despite having a welfare state designed to ease poverty and an education system which is free to all we end up with an Underclass seemingly incapable or unwilling to grasp the nettle break away and get on? 

Will this new teacher tough it out or simply follow many others and seek an alternative career? 

[malacandran]

I don't suppose any posters here are on benefits.

That's because we are clever, and know how to get good jobs.

And good pensions in retirement.

[joamur_gosof]

l well spotted astro 🙂 If you read any of my posts and no one does haha you will see loads of bad granma  as I like double meanings and making words up...hence no one reads them and I like that too....

If something is difficult .....:)

Reading on the  new government school guvvner report ....,he wants discipline grammer style...stand when an adult enters the room....and while I have no problem with teaching respect ,I am with harry on stop going backwards (thats what caused this)  and find a new way to install respect...but yes by all means do find that way,as these rule makers get paid a lot if they are just going to keep timewarping around the same broken ideas...I mean we all can do that cant we..

I am with CD on something must be done,with Fallen on stop them acting like louts but not with underclass and pointing.......as the report also says the main culprit schools of such bad behaviour are middle class schools ...which is also class rubbish...as its media,governing ,teachers, parents who install the children with a sense of hopelessness even though hope is right there.

Guvvner got the bit right that all schools need a shake and teachers need to be of the good teacher ilk ,to install the value in the children to respect others and themselves...standing up when sir and miss just did not work as here we are today...but along that line new ideas that will work would be worth the tax wages spent on these rule makers and the system twisters.

ps Gossiping about how it is rather than finding ideas of what can be done through talking to people  ,is the first sign of a  bad teacher vs good teacher  imo

[fallen-archie]

Harry the media do as they wish, they don't care who gets hurt as long as it gets them viewers.
Every profession has its cheats, the dope taker in sport, the rate rigger in Banks, the postal vote fraudsters in politics, the tax evader earning millions All guilty all cheating in one form or another. The only real threat to benefits comes from the cheats, they deserve a bad press because Society believes in helping those in genuine need.

[malacandran]

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@fallen-archie wrote:
Harry the media do as they wish, they don't care who gets hurt as long as it gets them viewers.
Every profession has its cheats, the dope taker in sport, the rate rigger in Banks, the postal vote fraudsters in politics, the tax evader earning millions All guilty all cheating in one form or another. The only real threat to benefits comes from the cheats, they deserve a bad press because Society believes in helping those in genuine need.

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Some people like to cheat, and others like to be honest

There's a basic distinction between two types of people.  Honest people, and cheats.

Why that distinction exists, I'm not sure.  Perhaps the cheats get an evolutionary advantage, by producing more offspring?

[joamur_gosof]

Thats very dry malac,but a good point at where some (thats some) changes are needed.

This gov seems to be getting to grips with it all and I like Cameron ,hope though its an all round cheat removing gov.

[pixiesen2012]

It's not up to the teachers, manners and respect should be taught at home,

by the time the children reach school the damage has been done,

[joamur_gosof]

what at 5 ?  your right of course that parents have the priority ..teachers however have the children ...so educating them is kind of on the agenda in schools and what the teachers take money off the tax payers for....

so parents ,teachers and goverment governing and the massive influence the media have ,are all responsible,so yes it is up to the teachers

[pixiesen2012]

They arrive at school with language that would make you blush,

with the 'you can't tell me what to do' attitude

and if you try to teach them the error of their ways the parents appear with even worse language.

To be able to teach well, you need the back up of the parents, teachers cannot do it all.

There are children arriving in school still in nappies because the parents just can't be bothered and have the attitude that it's the teachers job to teach their child to be clean!

[joamur_gosof]

I know where your coming from as I did with the OP ...but as I say all those involved with the children are responsible. Parents do not need to be wholly responsible as the children pick it up from their friends as well and thats where the line in schools and teachering becomes responsible...so again yes if the school is a playground for the unruly then yes that is their fault...and the gov interfering so the teachers do not know what to do is another line drawn so they are at fault .

If personal experience is a bad one ,do something about it and get on to the governing bodies and make suggestions that may help in the school shake up so this doesnt happen..

I am writing to my MP to ask them to tell the governer of education to rethink his step back in time approach but I wholly agree to his ethos and respect in school approach...I say find the new way of installing value into children that is sadly lacking...and its no one groups fault but a combination of groups.

[joamur_gosof]

ps..sadly lacking in some children,definitely not all.

[Anonymous]

Hello

What about the grand parents that once upon a time enthuse:

• respect
• taught one''s culture
• manners
• shared knowledge
• wisdom
• story telling

& relived the burdens at time from the working parents !

My GrandMother taught me manners & was happy to be with us children telling us stories/cooking & our culture ! However dad would also be hard as far as school/manners/discipline were concerned

I feel sad that a wealth of knowledge has disappeared & that our elders are not so prominent in Nowadays culture !

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@joamur_gosof wrote:

what at 5 ?  your right of course that parents have the priority ..teachers however have the children ...so educating them is kind of on the agenda in schools and what the teachers take money off the tax payers for....

so parents ,teachers and goverment governing and the massive influence the media have ,are all responsible,so yes it is up to the teachers

---

My wife and I obviously got it wrong!!!

We didn't think it was up to teachers, the government or anyone else to teach our daughter, (yes by the time she was 5), to say "please" and "thank you", not to be rude to others, how to use a knife and fork etc.  We thought she went to school to learn academic skills, life skills were our responsibility.

[joamur_gosof]

What are you defending school grounds for ??   read all my posts please don't just appear then say I got it wrong...I know what a parents job is...do you then stand with your children whilst the state takes them into their care 6 hours a day 5 days a week to make sure only the life skills you taught are being issued to your children through the teachers and other children ?

It is wholly a responsibility for all groups I mentioned ...full stop creeky...the only alternate is to home tutor which I myself would have done but I was not allowed...that ended in heart break and tradgedy for me and my family...so do not leave the teachers out of teaching values to children whilst in their care ,unless you live in a place where a parent goes to school with the children.

[joamur_gosof]

footnote

Do you believe it was your parent skills that adopted a polite person in your sibling.,if so you give your kids no credit ...2 at uni none ever swore and one dead here ...Is that my parent skills do you think ?

[joamur_gosof]

last one on the subject from here...

the minister has just finished his tour and report of schools ,so to stick to the OP

he says the Middle class schools are by far the worst for unruly children behaviour and that over 40 percent of Teachers are not fit for the job,he intends to roll them all out if they under perform in their Ethos role to the children. hmmm

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@joamur_gosof wrote:

What are you defending school grounds for ??   read all my posts please don't just appear then say I got it wrong...I know what a parents job is...do you then stand with your children whilst the state takes them into their care 6 hours a day 5 days a week to make sure only the life skills you taught are being issued to your children through the teachers and other children ?

It is wholly a responsibility for all groups I mentioned ...full stop creeky...the only alternate is to home tutor which I myself would have done but I was not allowed...that ended in heart break and tradgedy for me and my family...so do not leave the teachers out of teaching values to children whilst in their care ,unless you live in a place where a parent goes to school with the children.

---

I'm sorry but I do think you have got it wrong.

It's not the teachers who undermine the life skills I spoke of when children are at school.  For example at its simplest level I wouldn't expect teachers to teach that saying "please" or "thank you" was unnecessary or that it was perfectly acceptable to swear.  It is the parents of those children also at the school who have not taught their children how to behave and respect others that are the problem.  All that teachers can do is to try and cope with unruly children, to try and minimise the effect they are having on other children whilst at the same time trying to do their real job of teaching academic skills.

I don't know which 'class' is more responsible for producing, (teaching?), children who disrupt classrooms, assault teachers and behave in a generally anti-social manner.  That really is irrelevant, what is important is to accept that such children do exist, are not 'trained' by schools in such ways, do have an effect on their peers and will most likely end up being members of a future 'underclass'.

In the same way that I would not expect teachers to undermine life skills I taught my child it is totally unreasonable to say that they have failed because they have been unable to counteract the behaviour of children not taught a similar ethos by their parents.  Generally it is when they do try and do this that the conflict between teachers and parents arise that others have mentioned on this thread.

[joamur_gosof]

good morning creeky your up early...

I have not got it wrong ,you must be misunderstanding me in what I see as the schools and therefore the teachers roles.....I am speaking from experience in having hapless well meaning teachers not doing anything to stop the children being children......By that I mean ,the teachers did not teach the children to respect each other and that is a vital part of education.....now you say the parents should do it,and your right they should,but when your child is forced into the education system of having to be around 500 other kids 5 days a week and the school is not doing what I say ,,,then the worst can happen and does happen.

soo a recap

government interfering so the teachers dont know what to do when the whole thing is thrust upon them...they take the wages and the job so therefore are responsible...so if the school cannot control or install respect (or to put it to you your way) continue to support the responsible parent and just says 2 and 2 is 4 until the kids get bored and start to get out of control at the expense of others ...the school is not educating the children is it and the teachers are not able to teach the academic because they are busy asking each other what to do.......if they dont know what to do...and this thread and peoples experiences mentioned on it ..why are they taking money .......so it all boils down to those key educations of the young monkey doesnt it.....respect.

Parents are not wholly in the wrong as they have no control in the greater environment and coupled to the childrens adolecence stage creates a problem in the system of teaching making the teachers who take pay as responsible for educating values as you or I.

Is this wrong ?

[joamur_gosof]

ps  or lets point fingers and blame someone or a group....then the media bandwagon roles in and there is your last culprit.

[upthecreekyetagain]

So, if I understand you correctly, you say that teachers should be teaching children a moral standard you agree with even if such a standard is not what the parents of those children want them to follow.  How are they supposed to do that without coming into conflict with those parents?

When teachers attempt to exclude children who do not comply with the expected ethos of the school they are obstructed at every step.  In practical terms I just don't know what you expect them to do. 

At school, "Johnny, you should not call me a cow" - at home, "Your teacher is a cow, you tell her". - Who do you expect the child to listen to?

[joamur_gosof]

Footnote ..your view is every kid after being brought up in the correct fashion,would go to school in the teach me only mode and then never get into spats as they respect everyone....now ideal as that sounds ..it doesnt work. The system has never worked  ..teachers ask the kids to pick the team ..nominating a leader and a loser ...did it in my school days and do it now....put into groups....well in adolescence that can quickly become waring factions....half hour here an hour there teachings ...mainly boring half the kids to sleep because it isnt anything they want to learn.....

Ideal way is only educate is like university and college do it ..let the kids move onto subjects they want to learn and only learn that...the whole school project below those years is draconian waste of time and they know it ,but it separates the strong from the weak and there is the dole queue of the future or tesco slaves...and again thats exactly as its wanted.

To stop what this thread is about we need teachers who are ......and you all can make the rest up and write it down and get it posted to your representative and your kids headteachers.