The Vote.

[astrologica]

Watching the Parliamentary debate on the bombing question today, I am still undecided as to how I feel about it. Can I ask all our friends on here...If you were an MP in Parliament today and had to cast your vote this evening...how would you vote?

[cee-dee]

To bomb. Even a small campaign will rid the World of some more terrorists.

[evoman3957]

Given the kind of enemy that we are talking about, ones ( in my view ) who are even worse than the Nazi's ever were; my view is a fairly simplistic one and is based on the last man standing principle. They must be killed........ALL of them.......down to the last Man, Woman & Child and they must be killed at a faster rate they they are killing us........us being anybody who isn't them. Just like cancer, if you don't get it ALL; it will return, sometimes more aggressively than ever before.......and with fatal consequences. I've made my view clear in the past, of how Arabs / Muslims NEVER clean up their own mess. It should be THEM, not us, who are defending this wonderful faith they are always telling the rest of us about. To that end, it should be THEIR armies.......THEIR boots on the ground; sorting out this mess. I view a bombing campaign as a game a bit like "Bat the Rat", where you have a Mallett and every time one of many Rats pops its head up, you bat it with the Mallett. That, at least, keeps them in their holes with their heads down; but you'd better hope that you don't get tired, or that the Mallett doesn't break.........because if they get out of those holes, all hell is going to break loose. So any bombing campaign, is merely a containment exercise; in the vain hope that a very primitive and inherently lazy race of people, can stop killing each other and focus on a common enemy.........and knowing Arabs and their tribal mentality as I do, I'm not going to hold my breath.

[fallen-archie]

My heart says no but my head says what is the alternative. Like it or hate it these fanatics will not stop unless someone stops them.

[astrologica]

Thanks for posting.....I guess that I have felt the same really...that they need to be crushed out of existence. But what makes me waver is not the ones that are in Syria and Iraq, I feel that maybe we would be able to deal with them. It's the home grown ones and the ones that are allowed back into this country after their 'holidays ' in Syria, that worry me. I haven't got any confidence that our government will  stop more arriving here and deal with the radicalisation that is going on in this country. It is probably certain that we will have terror attacks here at some stage, whatever we do, so maybe you are right....just do it.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I'd vote no - not because I have any sympathy at all for ISIS nor because I wouldn't like to see the world rid of them - not even because of possible civilian casualties if we did bomb.

I'd vote no for two simple reasons - (1) It will result in more recruits to ISIS and (2) it will make attacks in the UK far more likely.

[cee-dee]

Wot a lot of messing about. They all filed out, then filed back in, stood around getting in everyone's way and finally the vote on the amendemt was 211 for, 390 against.

Now they've gotta do it all over again on the main question.

[cee-dee]

For 397, against 223.

[astrologica]

The planes are probably taking off as we speak here. 

[cee-dee]

"................ within the next few hours, British jets will be carrying out operations in Syria".

[jd.linklater]

I have never been in favour of going to war as opposed to finding diplomatic solutions to world problems. I think it was Tony Benn who once said that war represents the abject failure of diplomacy and I agree wholeheartedly but we have never faced an enemy of this nature before, at least not in my lifetime.

ISIS have declared their intentions to establish a world wide caliphate. Their opponents fall into two camps, unbelievers and apostates. They only use two methods to deal with their opponents, death or enslavement. By that rationale they have declared war not just on Syria or Iraq or the West but on the whole civilised world, which is why they have to be eradicated down to the last man. The only certainty is that this cannot be achieved by airstrikes alone. We have evidence from World War II that aerial bombardment is completely indiscriminate. ISIS's two strongholds are Raqqa which has a civilian population of around 1/4 million and Mosul which has over 1.8 million. Intensifying airstrikes is likely to kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

The logical next step should be a massive ground invasion by a multi-national force but nobody has the heart for it because there are far too many unknowns. Raqqa and Mosul are both under occupation by ISIS, we cannot possibly determine how many innocents have converted to the Islamist cause rather than face death so we have no idea of their strength of numbers. Intelligence estimates put their numbers at around 35,000 but this week a Kurdish military spokesman has said there could be as many as 200,000 including converts.

Apparently there are 70,000 troops already on the ground ready to engage but I've recently read that there are around 100 diffent factions among them most of whom are more concerned with removing Assad than taking on ISIS. They aren't being helped by Russian airstrikes which appear to be targetting both camps, so what difference can the UK joining in the conflict make? Very little I would say, but I don't see how we can justify doing nothing. So for that reason I say we have to engage with our allies in airstrikes but realistcally I see no satisfactory outcome to the situation that won't involve a ground invasion.

The only conflict in history that has been satisfactorily concluded by aerial bombing alone was when the US bombed Hiroshima.

[cee-dee]

Well there you are then, drop a bomb on Raqqa and Mosul and that's the end of it, problem solved??

[fallen-archie]

I think it sad that we have had to resort to bombing but now it's time to get behind our brave servicemen carrying out their orders with skill and at great risk to themselves.

I also find it ironic that some of those opposing military action responded to the news by sending death threats to some who voted in favour, so pacifism even for them has its limits. 

The much Lauded speech by Hilary Benn was probably the highlight of the nights debate he spoke with passion and great skill putting a well reasoned argument. You could see how hard it was for those seeking the popular vote to stomach however he will also be accused of feathering his own nest. The SNP were the satrs of the night, Alex Salmond fighting off crocodile tears in an attempt to get Cameron to retract a label he gave to those he saw as terror sympathisers. He and his rag tag bunch of comrades are a viscious bunch of political thugs who care little for anything other than their own idealogical desires and lust for fame and importance.

[joe_bloggs*]

The speech by Hilary Benn got the most cheers from the tories,as Alex Salmond said his father would be spinning in his grave,as as for the assurances that the weapons dropped will be accurate,innocent men,women and children will undoubtably be killed,isis are hiding out amongst the civillian population.Hilary Benn exposed his true nature last night,as did the other labour mp's who voted for war,their 

eyes are forever firmly fixed on the main prize The Leadership of the Labour Party and thence the ultimate goal of PM.

They had a chance  last night to challenge the war machine, to go after the criminals in Saudi who rule that country no less horrifically then isis do in their areas, and who supply arm and train isis as well as Turkey,but they did'nt go after them and probaly never will.

Instead Benn deliberately and with malicious intent decided to use his speech to stab Jeremy Corbyn in the back (which was the whole point of his speech) and to call for war.

 Benn said that the difference between himself and the others who voted for war in Westminster last night, and the scum of isis, is that nobody in Westminster deliberately sets out to harm civilians, or to slaughter children.Thats a lie,thats what war is.

As a wise person once said:

War is only ever about 3 things.

Profit.  -  Who is getting richer from war?

Politics. -  Who is Profiting by warring?

Dominion. -  Who are the true Masters?

usefull infograph of Syria

[evoman3957]

Unfortunately, those that pride themselves as caring social Labourites; just can't come to terms with the Fact that their wonderful Party, as well as supposedly representing the working class & grass roots of this Country.........also represent & offer sanctuary to it's filthy low life Dregs. Those people who, when they demonstrate, daub graffiti & urinate on the Cenotaph....Send pictures of severed heads & dead Children, to those MP's who voted with the Government, The "Swampy" types who will find some Bye Pass to demonstrate about, so they'll have an excuse to desecrate or urinate on something. Their level of democracy........well that speaks for itself, Dianne Abbott wants all those, who voted with the government, sacked.......but then the vindictive, scummy little low life, is still swooning over the sack time she had with her hero "Hippy" leader...........God what a disgraceful, Disgusting bunch. I couldn't affiliate myself to something that incorporated, in it's ranks, that kind of gutter level of life.

[cee-dee]

Before the Labour leadership vote went ahead, I said that Corbyn would be suicide for the Labour party and it's proving to be so. Not wishing to join with abusive people, I still have to say that the loony-left are dangerous for the country.

On the subject of being abusive, it's always been proved that those who resort to such behaviour are those who can't debate their points in a reasoned manner.

On the subject of the bombing, you cannot reason with murderous criminals like you couldn't reason with the Nazi fanatics and those from Japan during WW2, the Viet Cong or Khmer Rouge later on.

Let us say for a moment that the fight against the above had been stopped and "diplomacy" had taken over, what would have been the likely outcome? Oppressed people and many, many more deaths?

War is not "nice", if you don't want to suffer the consequences, don't make war in the first place.

[evoman3957]

Unfortunately, there are people out there who would watch their own Families being murdered, in front of their own Eyes, and not lift a finger to defend them............and unlike past years, there's now a lot more in this Country; than pride would let me admit to. You could dress it up any way you want, but the English word for it is COWARDS !!

[joe_bloggs*]

which of Corbyns policies would you describe as loony left CD? The Blairites in the labour pary are the extremists,they might as well cross the floor and join the tories as most of them don't appear to support policies for working people

As for Benn,he voted for and was a supporter of the Iraq war and we all know how that turned out,as in other countries helped by the west,Syria has resources which the west would like to control,they would be better helping Russia and the Syrian army to defeat isis instead they support regimes which are actively arming and financing terrorists

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@cee-dee wrote:

Before the Labour leadership vote went ahead, I said that Corbyn would be suicide for the Labour party and it's proving to be so. Not wishing to join with abusive people, I still have to say that the loony-left are dangerous for the country.

On the subject of being abusive, it's always been proved that those who resort to such behaviour are those who can't debate their points in a reasoned manner.

On the subject of the bombing, you cannot reason with murderous criminals like you couldn't reason with the Nazi fanatics and those from Japan during WW2, the Viet Cong or Khmer Rouge later on.

Let us say for a moment that the fight against the above had been stopped and "diplomacy" had taken over, what would have been the likely outcome? Oppressed people and many, many more deaths?

War is not "nice", if you don't want to suffer the consequences, don't make war in the first place.

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[cee-dee]

I love my country because of its Left-wing values, declares Corbyn.

[joe_bloggs*]

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@cee-dee wrote:

I love my country because of its Left-wing values, declares Corbyn.

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