Should Faith/Religion Have Such a High Value In Our Society?

[lambsy_uk]

I'm not here to trample all over people's faith/beliefs but to ask if/why such beliefs should hold such high value in our society?

So where am I comming from? Well we can freely question almost anything in our society/lives; morals, political beliefs, actions and reactions, motivations, interactions, foreign policy, education, welfare, how we raise our children, law and order and so on..........

However we are positively discouraged from questioning people's faith/beliefs/religion! We are also actively encouraged to accommodate and allow for people's religious beliefs, and this is the bit that really irks me! Why is it that if something is done in the name of a religious belief/practice then we are expected to accept it with little fuss where if any other excuse were used we'd be up in arms?

We endure arguments of whether animal rights should take precedence over religion, whether saving the life of a child should take precedence over their parent's beliefs, should freedom of expression take precedence over religious sensitivities?

For me you may as well base stuff on the football team you support;

"I can't comply with the company dress code because I'm a United fan and therefore I must be allowed to wear a United shirt at work."

As far as I'm concerned this is no more ridiculous than anything done/not done in the name of religious beliefs!

So why do religious beliefs hold such high status and is it right that they do?

[saasher2012]

Yes I do think it's a good set of rules to live by, it's the other bits I can't stomach.

[bankhaunter]

Leave out the "God" bits and there's a lot of good sense.

You could take from the Bible the good bits ignoring the rest though you would have to add all that which is not mentioned, that would however just give the same guidance to behaviour that most societies impose in order that it's members should live at peace and harmony with their fellows.

The Bible is simply redundant serving no purpose other than being an interesting piece of literature, one that greatly affected and added to our language.

The sooner religion and all the guilt-inducing rants and threats of divine retribution are forgotten, the better!

It wouldn't be so bad if they actually made any sense, the idea that we have free will and therefore choose to go to hell if we don't believe is plainly ridiculous.

A mugger holds a gun to their victims head and states if they don't hand over their money they will be shot.

The victim refuses and is killed but in court the mugger, based on apparent christian thinking, can claim the victim had a choice, chose the wrong one and so committed suicide.

[**bustysinclaire**]

it's called a CONS CIENCE. This puts us above all other animals in this world of ours

Yes it  is I agree,

But that conscience was given to us by God when he made us, so you are actually living by many of God's principles whether you accept them to be or not.

[saasher2012]

LOL. Sorry I seem to have posted my reply on the one word LOL. Gremlins, insanity, either way the reply is there!.

[bankhaunter]

But that conscience was given to us by God when he made us,

We were not created, we evolved, along with other apes, from a common apelike ancestor. denying the evidence will not make it go away.

However let us hypothesise that we were created with a conscience, we have it right from the start so why the Bible?

We already have a conscience from which we can extract our morals, we need nothing else.

If we did need the Bible for some reason are you suggesting that all those who had no knowledge of it had no morals, if so that is demonstrably untrue, even animals that live in groups have certain rules governing their behaviour.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

But that conscience was given to us by God when he made us,

We were not created, we evolved, along with other apes, from a common apelike ancestor. denying the evidence will not make it go away.

However let us hypothesise that we were created with a conscience, we have it right from the start so why the Bible?

We already have a conscience from which we can extract our morals, we need nothing else.

If we did need the Bible for some reason are you suggesting that all those who had no knowledge of it had no morals, if so that is demonstrably untrue, even animals that live in groups have certain rules governing their behaviour.

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Yes dear, if you say so xxxxx

[merehazle]

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

it's called a CONS CIENCE. This puts us above all other animals in this world of ours

Yes it  is I agree,

But that conscience was given to us by God when he made us, so you are actually living by many of God's principles whether you accept them to be or not.

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Hi busty. 

Animals behave by ''instinct'' and are incapable of evil?  And therefore puts them above us IMO.

They cannot disern between right or wrong -  therefore cannot do wrong. 

We can.   And look at the almighty mess we have made of their and our world. 

If we are living by many of Gods principles whether we accept them or not -

with respects can you prove it?   And at least don't you think these Gods might take the reins?

After all it's long been time since they did. 

[bankhaunter]

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@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

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@bankhaunter wrote:

But that conscience was given to us by God when he made us,

We were not created, we evolved, along with other apes, from a common apelike ancestor. denying the evidence will not make it go away.

However let us hypothesise that we were created with a conscience, we have it right from the start so why the Bible?

We already have a conscience from which we can extract our morals, we need nothing else.

If we did need the Bible for some reason are you suggesting that all those who had no knowledge of it had no morals, if so that is demonstrably untrue, even animals that live in groups have certain rules governing their behaviour.

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Yes dear, if you say so xxxxx

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Oi!

That's my line.

[saasher2012]

We also behave instinctively but we are conditioned to try & not act on all of them , we should & do know right from wrong which is why we have a conscience , animals do not , that is why they feel no pity when killing, it is purely instinct to feed themselves & their young to survive. It's only this knowledge that we have evolved with that now tells us that we have exploited this earth & the other species that live in it. Before that we also did the same as the animals .

[**bustysinclaire**]

NO! It was given to me by my parents teaching & genetics ,
My parents made me not God!
I live by any normal decent living persons rules it has nothing to do with religion , I am not a believer.
This thread is about. " should faith/ religion have such a high value in our society" not another excuse for you to start preaching again , reminder given with respect!

With respect saasher I am just adding my opinion as you do, I cannot help it if you don't like what you read, (your conscience pricking perhaps lol) I am not being rude or disrespectful by doing so. Just joining in the conversation.

Hi busty.

Animals behave by ''instinct'' and are incapable of evil? And therefore puts them above us IMO.

They cannot disern between right or wrong -  therefore cannot do wrong. 

We can.   And look at the almighty mess we have made of their and our world.

If we are living by many of Gods principles whether we accept them or not -

with respects can you prove it?   And at least don't you think these Gods might take the reins?

After all it's long been time since they did.

Hi merehazle.

I do agree with you about the animals and their instinct and that they cannot do evil as humans can, by making choices, but as I have learnt and accept the Bible explanation of creation then we did not evolve from apes.

Animals behaviour became agressive because of the evil influences of the world after the first disobedient pair sinned because it was a case survival for them. Before that the animals lived in harmony with man. It tells us in the bible that we will again live alongside the animals with no threat from them or fear of them and visa versa.

I believe the opposite that animals are lower than us because we can choose. God made us higher.

With respect to you, The proof of Gods creation is all around us, the evidence is in abundance but it depends on whether you want to believe it or not, because you don't want to believe in it you wont. You are closed to it. I don't mean that disrespectfully either because we do have the right to choose. But you turn it around and try to prove to me of evolution, because I have had the proof of creation given to me I don't accept the feable (IMHO) argument that we came about from the big bang theory, I find that very ludicrous and illogical.

I also agree with you that mankind has made one huge mess of our world, God has allowed mankind to try and govern themselves (there is a reason for that - Satan challenges God that we could) and we have proved we cannot so he will soon step in and rectify all that is wrong with the world.

Saasher acuses me of preaching where it is not wanted, all I am doing is adding another opinion to the mix, like you all, that is all I can do, I cannot force anyone to believe in it if they do not wish to. The same is with me, I read what opinions are politely posted on here but you none of you can force it down my throat and make me believe it.

The difference is though I don't get all flustered and annoyed by you posting it, it is a free discussion board for all.

[saasher2012]

Incorrect I get annoyed because you are going of topic& you can preach as much as you like as you say it's a discussion board , but I respectfully ask you if you want to do that start a thread on that subject& also with respect I'm answering you directly not through another poster! But whilst we are discussing this I believe Mearhazle asked for proof of your teachings I seen none that convince me.
As to my conscience pricking me, all I can say is don't try & get a job as a comedienne ! lol.

[**bustysinclaire**]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
Incorrect I get annoyed because you are going of topic& you can preach as much as you like as you say it's a discussion board , but I respectfully ask you if you want to do that start a thread on that subject& also with respect I'm answering you directly not through another poster! But whilst we are discussing this I believe Mearhazle asked for proof of your teachings I seen none that convince me.
As to my conscience pricking me, all I can say is don't try & get a job as a comedienne ! lol.

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lol,

With respect, saasher I felt my opinion was on topic that is why it was posted. I do start threads where I think it may be better to do so. I apologise for answering via a different poster, what I was answering was on another thread altogether so would have been off topic.

The answer to merehazle was merehazles and I quite understood their question and quite satisfactorily answered it.

If the proofs don't convince you that is not my problem but yours. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. sorry about the pun.

Point taken about the commedienne lol. But I don't recall that this topic was meant to be a joke.

I am sorry but it does look as though we may be going tit for tat here so I will try not to do so anymore., but If someone asks me a valid question I wil politely and honestly answer whereever I feel I should. thank you saasher.

[bankhaunter]

I have never quite understood why God has no control over Satan considering that he is supposed to be omnipotent.

But there again a simple reading of the Bible does show it to be a record of God's abject failure time after time to achieve his apparent objective even on one occasion being defeated because his enemies had iron wheels on their chariots.

At one point he decides not to try with all mankind but rather with just one family obviously thinking smaller might be easier, unfortunately that disintegrated into a succession of disasters.

This is a being of whom we should have faith actually exists and who we should praise and whose representatives are worthy of respect?

[saasher2012]

Your welcome!

[**bustysinclaire**]

bankhaunter wrote:

I have never quite understood why God has no control over Satan considering that he is supposed to be omnipotent.

But there again a simple reading of the Bible does show it to be a record of God's abject failure time after time to achieve his apparent objective even on one occasion being defeated because his enemies had iron wheels on their chariots.

What makes you think God has no control? Just because he does or doesn't do how you would expect. You can't really judge him to have none yet because he hasn't actually finished his job of restoration yet. He states he will get rid of satan for ever but that has still to come so you cannot judge him to have no control. If you do read through the bible in it's entirity you will see (even if you don't believe it) that he has time spans and plans he is working out and dealing with Satan as he sees fit for good reasons.

At one point he decides not to try with all mankind but rather with just one family obviously thinking smaller might be easier, unfortunately that disintegrated into a succession of disasters.

Sorry Bank, not sure to what you are refering there?

[merehazle]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

Leave out the "God" bits and there's a lot of good sense.

You could take from the Bible the good bits ignoring the rest though you would have to add all that which is not mentioned, that would however just give the same guidance to behaviour that most societies impose in order that it's members should live at peace and harmony with their fellows.

The Bible is simply redundant serving no purpose other than being an interesting piece of literature, one that greatly affected and added to our language.

The sooner religion and all the guilt-inducing rants and threats of divine retribution are forgotten, the better!

It wouldn't be so bad if they actually made any sense, the idea that we have free will and therefore choose to go to hell if we don't believe is plainly ridiculous.

A mugger holds a gun to their victims head and states if they don't hand over their money they will be shot.

The victim refuses and is killed but in court the mugger, based on apparent christian thinking, can claim the victim had a choice, chose the wrong one and so committed suicide.

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And God blessed them, and God said to them, ''Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

And so they did subdue it. (oh yes they certainly did) And so did they have dominion over everything that moves on the earth.  The Chinese EAT anything that moves.  God help anything that moves in China.

Some say humans are creations only mistake?    What do you think ? 

Right that's enough from me today - I'm off to bed to read my copy of Bleak House. 

[tommy.irene]

This religion has a high profile...  www.irishcentral.com/news/Pope-Francis-to-meet-with-Irish-abuse-victims-at-Vatican-on-Monday.html

[bankhaunter]

What makes you think God has no control? Just because he does or doesn't do how you would expect. You can't really judge him to have none yet because he hasn't actually finished his job of restoration yet.

He's omnipotent, he needs to do little more than snap his fingers, problem solved, if he could create the vastness of the Universe in one day, why should dealing with Satan take thousands of years?

Unless of course Satan has an iron chariot.

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Judges:1-19.

At one point he decides not to try with all mankind but rather with just one family obviously thinking smaller might be easier, unfortunately that disintegrated into a succession of disasters.

Sorry Bank, not sure to what you are refering there?

He starts off with Adam and Eve but that ends in failure with the necessity to drown everybody.

He kicks off again with Noah but that lot had the temerity to build a tower, scared they would reach Heaven, he destroys it and inflicts various languages on the people to curb their aspirations, (apparently was not concerned about skyscrapers coming later).

Then he selects Abraham to begin again, deciding they would be his chosen people, the rest could do what they liked, and we know all the happenings after that, it didn't exactly go smoothly.

[saasher2012]

Bet he/ she is pulling his/her hair out, with the frustration of it all , we supposedly are made in his/ her image & are making all the mistakes that he/ she did before,& yet in theory will be punished for it. Smacks a bit of " do as I say not as I do" ?
& because of all this hypocrisy I myself personally do not think it does warrant a high value in our society, however each to their own & if it is important to individuals then that's fine by me as well. We are lucky that we can talk openly up to a point on this subject, it's not that long ago in human terms that those who feel as I & others do were burned at the stake for stating our views, another religious treat! lol.

[lambsy_uk]

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@renomarvinm wrote:

Your question is not relevant - no matter how logical you try to be, you cannot edit out religious desires or even modify them in any way - people just won't go for it.  They are emotions, after all and, as such, are uncontrollible.

The first rule of politics is this - do not try to be logical - find an emotional hook and pull on that.  Same for religion.

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My question is not relevant to what?

I question whether the influence that religion has on the governance of our socity is appropriate, sure it is not too dificult to answer such a question!

Many people have no religious desires so I'd suggest they can be edited, also there have been many modifications over time, people do go for it and have done in their droves over the centuries!

First rule of politics: Question everything!!!