PISA Table, very poor rankings.

[cee-dee]

So the UK has come out badly in the World rankings and Wales is bottom of the pile in the UK?

Why do YOU think that is?

Why do I think that is? Here goes:-

There's many contributory factors and one thing that seems to stand out is that for some reason the education system seems to think that everyone will "achieve" if they're all treated the same. They won't! All that will happen is that in the end, the brightest will get dragged down to the same level as "poor achievers".

Another thing is that current teaching seems not to care about bad spelling and poor grammar. We see the results of that every day in news reports whether online or on paper.

The curriculum is far too wide, before wasting valuable learning time on pet subjects, the basic reading, writing and mathematics should be learned well at primary school.

As to the results from Wales, what can you expect? They're ramming the Welsh language down the throats of little kids and for what? Keeping the culture and history is one thing, insisting that Welsh takes precedence over everything else is wrong. My friends 5 year old grandchild was told by her teacher not to listen to what anyone out of school tried to teach her, she should only listen to her teachers!

I saw how some South Korean children were learning and they'd gone from one extreme to another, teenagers spending 13 hours a day at school is far too much but..... those interviewed spoke English in a way that would put many in this country to shame and one boy spoke so well, he'd make a better newsreader than many at the BBC. I saw a Scottish man being interviewed in Glasgow and couldn't understand most of what he was saying which leads back to cramming Welsh.

The South Korean children are leaning ENGLISH, the reason being English is now the language of the World. Go more or less anywhere and there's someone who understands English? Where can you go (apart from Wales) where you might find a Welsh speaker? The Southern tip of South America?

I'm not attacking the Welsh language or the culture, I'm criticising the narrow minded attitude, the results of which is evident from the poor standings in the PISA table?

[blackburn_stevie]

CD .... Did you notice that the 3 Asian kids that were interviewed would not have appeared out of place at a high end Public school?

Where were the "You know", "Innit", "Know what I mean", type of youngster that inhabits our streets these days?

BTW, I totally agree with you about the acheivers being held back. In my day, we had a Remedial Class where all the lowest scorers from last year's tests were sent. These kids then really had to go for it next term or their parents would go to town on them.

Parents ..... There's another reason for kids not doing so well in school. IMHO, only. Of course.

[chips-and-brown-gravy]

Agreed, The basics of maths and English should be an absolute priority. How many children are read to at bedtime or any other time for that matter, their parents haven't time, and many teachers are poorly educated.  I know of more than one who uses the terms 'should of' and 'could of' both written and spoken and don't see a problem.

Cornwall Council has a budget of half a million pounds a year for 'promoting the Cornish Language' and no one speaks it! The last Cornish speaker, Dolly Pentreath who died in 1777  was probably the last fluent, native speaker.

All this while cutting millions from their budget affecting adult care and health and services for vulnerable youngsters.

Is it any wonder this country is in such a mess.

[blackburn_stevie]

BTW. Is a "Pisa toff" a highly educated member of the gentry from a famous Italian town or is it a person speaking English with an Italian accent who is not very happy?

[ronnybabes]

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@cee-dee wrote:

So the UK has come out badly in the World rankings and Wales is bottom of the pile in the UK?

Why do YOU think that is?

Why do I think that is? Here goes:-

There's many contributory factors and one thing that seems to stand out is that for some reason the education system seems to think that everyone will "achieve" if they're all treated the same. They won't! All that will happen is that in the end, the brightest will get dragged down to the same level as "poor achievers".

Another thing is that current teaching seems not to care about bad spelling and poor grammar. We see the results of that every day in news reports whether online or on paper.

The curriculum is far too wide, before wasting valuable learning time on pet subjects, the basic reading, writing and mathematics should be learned well at primary school.

Absolutely agree with you, and the further comments that Stevie made.

Now it's my turn to stick the proverbial head above the parapet... and make a somewhat controversial statement!.

Some schools (particularly inner city ones) get inundated with children who cannot speak English, and have many cultures and traditions. These Schools, and their Teachers have a thankless, uphill, and impossible job. Blimey! when I was at school, the Teachers struggled with classes of 30 to 35 children, and they only had the English language to contend with. What chance of achieving excellence at these schools. Not impossible, I grant you, but slim, all the same.

PS: Have you noticed how pupils at school in other countries like Japan, and China, when shown on news footage, always look studious, disciplined and well behaved.....

Anyone here watch "Waterloo Road".    

 

   'ream .. innit!!

[guardpig]

Well here's my 5 eggs.

"What chance of achieving excellence"  This test is not looking for excellence.  I had a look at what is claimed as geuine questions, level 1 - 5.  Boring, I failed the level 5 because I couldn't be bothered to read the question.  How many of our brighter kids just got bored?  I have no doubt the S Koreans are told this test is important but are ours? Would they care?  These questions are actually very basic Arithmetic and seem to be testing the ability to read the question properly more the maths. From the sample Maths questions I would put it well below the 11+ standard of the 60s.

I have long thought that we should be teaching basic Maths and English to all our school children and move them on when they have either learnt the skills or have learnt all they can.  There are too many youngsters, including rather bright ones, who seem to lack  familiarity with the basic maths and english skills employers expect.  There should be education to suit every child not an education designed for the average.  

Our education system is broken, neither the powers that be nor the teachers unions and leaders are the slightest bit interested in fixing it.  Parents need to be aware of how their child is learning, what their child is being taught and how this fits into the bigger picture of the World, working, studying etc. Unfortunately there seem to be all too many parents who just don't care.

[bookhunter2007]

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@cee-dee wrote:

So the UK has come out badly in the World rankings and Wales is bottom of the pile in the UK?

Why do YOU think that is?

---

Some good points here:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-bad-british-schools/16574

"British 15-year-olds performed about average in maths and reading and above average in science. There were no significant changes compared with results in 2006 and 2009. But other countries, notably the Asian nations at the top of the league tables as well as European countries like Germany and Poland, have managed big improvements over the same timeframe."

I think countries renowned for a strong cultural work ethic are always going to fare well.

As far as the UK is concerned, the last 10 years has seen an agenda to convert failing schools into academies. Thus, imo there's often less incentive to turn around a failing school when an injection of PFI cash could potentially be around the corner. Of course, a lick of paint and a couple of expensive architectural quirks are not going to change the catchment.  It's good news for the backers and lenders; not so good news for the mugs who end up paying the extortionate interest rates - that's us btw.

[cee-dee]

Your comment about "work ethic" is spot on.

Here, people are obsessed with "leisure", holidays, sport and playing silly computer games. No-one wants to work any more but they still want "the money".

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

I am aghast at what the Korean children are expected to do.  13 hrs of lessons per day, first in regular school and then in a crammer, getting home at 11 pm, going to bed at 2 am ... and getting up to repeat the whole thing at 6.30 am the next day.  Teenagers need more than 4 1/2 hrs sleep per night for proper brain development.  No wonder their teen suicide rate is the highest in the world.

And what is the point?  Are they all going into employment where they use all this crammed knowledge?  And what about those who don't make the grade?  Korea must have its share of dyslexic and special education needs children.  Where do they fit in within such a system?  If I were a Korean parent, I would be lobbying for change, that's for sure.  So they come near the top of a world league table for maths skills.  But what has been lost to get them there, that can never be regained?

I believe the perspective is all wrong.  You go to work to live, not the other way around.  Workaholism is used to cover up and gloss over all sorts of problems.  It is never the answer. 

That is not to say that teens here do not need a jolt.  They do.  The school day in the UK could be more demanding and certainly attitudes need to shift.   But holding up Korea as an example of what can be achieved is unwise ... IMV.  Life is not a maths test. 

[*.*..lola..*.*]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Your comment about "work ethic" is spot on.

Here, people are obsessed with "leisure", holidays, sport and playing silly computer games. No-one wants to work any more but they still want "the money".

---

No-one wants to work any more but they still want "the money".

CeeDee I don't know what evidence you're basing that statement on or how much interaction you have with young people on a day to day basis but that is certainly not my experience.

Until I changed jobs recently, I used to work for a major high street retailer. To save money on their wages bill, the company employed a whole seperate team of staff (including supervisors and office staff) to work weekends, late nights and during the holidays at a much lower rate of pay than the week day staff.

These staff were all basically college kids studying for their A levels and apart from a few managers, they effectively ran the store, extremely efficiently, by themselves during the busiest times.

I found most of them to be mature, conscientious and hard working with a very clear idea of what they 'hoped' to achieve out of life.

If you want to blame someone, blame the teachers and the education system as a whole. My son is in year 9 at secondary school and some of the stories he tells me about the teachers there makes my blood boil grrrr!!

It makes me sad to think that a whole generation of young people are being tarred with the same brush as a few bad apples highlighted in the press  

[bankhaunter]

As to the results from Wales, what can you expect? They're ramming the Welsh language down the throats of little kids and for what? Keeping the culture and history is one thing, insisting that Welsh takes precedence over everything else is wrong

Welsh is the national language, the country is bilingual and English is the second language of many so obviously people don't want to see it disappear.

I cannot see any reason why it adversely affects school performance.

[cee-dee]

Welsh is the national language of the Welsh. It is much loved by academics but is a drawback for most others. It's a costly waste of time and effort and for what?

Leaving aside Nationalistic argument, it's of little benefit except in Wales, everywhere else it's  drawback.

If they spent as much time on learning to speak, read and write English much better, there wouldn't be such a narrow-minded, vociferous minority dragging the country backwards!

Like this?:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/please-dont-call-village-farteg-6085941

[bookhunter2007]

---

Here, people are obsessed with "leisure", holidays, sport and playing silly computer games. No-one wants to work any more but they still want "the money".

---

Not sure it's that straightforward, but technology does probably play a large role in the changing values and nature of 'work'. e.g. The fact we're discussing this on the forum of an online auction site rather than a works canteen. And kids in the Far East are more into computer games than our lot!

Today's youngsters are educated in an environment of calculators, spell-checks, Google, Tweets and mobile phones, thus it's fairly inevitable general levels of literacy and numeracy are going to suffer as a result compared to the 'good old days'.  Yet, it could be argued knowing your way around a PC or the ability to 'read' situations are more important life and occupational skills than the ability to spell 'Chrysanthemum'. Caution makes some good points - reminds me of the "Poeeeems?!" scene in The Wall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpxd3pZAVHI

I think there's quite a prevalent (counter) culture in parts of the UK - esp traditional W/C areas (inc South Wales) -  of a general distrust and resentment of the educational 'system' and teachers - resulting in an ethos which encourages kids to rebel against the 'system' rather than conform to it. This is an old study by Prof. Paul Willis but some principles still have relevance imo:

http://culturalstudiesnow.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/paul-willis-learning-to-labor-summary.html

[bankhaunter]

Welsh is the national language of the Welsh. It is much loved by academics but is a drawback for most others. It's a costly waste of time and effort and for what?

It is not just much loved by academics, it can be heard spoken everywhere right through the age groups and learning Welsh is not a drawback for anybody, most children whose parents don't speak Welsh anyway, will learn it as they go through primary school and the country is not being dragged back by a narrow minded vociferous minority.

The fuss over the village name is merely incidental.

Like in so many other parts of the UK some areas of Wales have children whose parents and grandparents did not regard school as being important and so those children view it the same, unfortunately whereas in the past jobs for the unlearned were not always difficult to find and so good schooling wasn't so necessary, that no longer applies but the way of thinking still exists.

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@*.*..lola..*.* wrote:
 

If you want to blame someone, blame the teachers ...

---

Please don't.  Teachers can only work within the system as it stands and with the youngsters in front of them.  Much of the flexibility that used to exist has gone.  This has meant a general leveling of the standard of teaching, bringing the poorer ones up, but also dumbing down inventiveness, enthusiasm, etc. 

The school day is short ... and shorter still when you factor in all the extraneous stuff (assemblies, lining up, moving around the building, changing for P.E. and so on and so forth), and the curriculum is crowded.

Plus teachers have little, if any, control over the society from which the students who fill their classrooms emerge.  There are many distractions out there, and society as a whole does not put education first.  Witness how often a main channel TV film aimed at children doesn't finish till 10pm on a Sunday night.  What does that say?  It says that getting adequate sleep before a day at school is not important.  Parents have an uphill battle to "parent" in the face of things like this.  It may seem very minor to society at large, but, believe me, teachers up and down the land would like a little more co-operation in their endeavour to get the best out of the children in their classes.

The key to attainment is not actually ability.  It is attitude. 

[cee-dee]

"The key to attainment is not actually ability.  It is attitude."

Ability plays some part but I agree with your mention of attitude, it plays the greater part.

That applies to teachers too!

[blackburn_stevie]

With regard to how Welsh kids are taught at school and the way the teaching is done, I don't see how the teachers can be blamed.

I mean to say, who sits down and works out the curriculum for next year? The teachers? I don't think so. And then again,  the teachers can only teach the curriculum as laid down before them. Then, on top of that, the teachers have had their main teaching tool taken away from them, the dreaded SLIPPER. The very thought of a clout across the backside with "Oscar" (That was what our Geography teacher called his "Wepeon causing mass attention" when I was a nipper) made us all pay attention to classwork and the test results were correspondantly higher.

Speaking of that subject, can anyone remember exactly why such punishments, ie, the cane, slipper, ruler etc were banned in schools? AFAIR, no blood was spilled and nobody died so what was the problem? OK, there may have been one or two teachers that went over the top but was it a case of stopping all teachers from using the cane rather than stopping just those few bad apples?

Typical way for the government of the day to do things. Just look at film footage of kids in school back in the 50's and 60's and see the attention on the kid's faces compared to what you see nowadays, or is that just a case of the camera showing you just what it wants you to see?

Cheers,

Steve.

[saasher2012]

Don't forget the dreaded perfectly aimed missile,, the blackboard wiper!

[*.*..lola..*.*]

Please don't. Teachers can only work within the system as it stands and with the youngsters in front of them. Much of the flexibility that used to exist has gone. This has meant a general leveling of the standard of teaching, bringing the poorer ones up, but also dumbing down inventiveness, enthusiasm, etc.

Exactly Caution which is why the whole of my sentence actually read: "If you want to blame someone, blame the teachers and the education system as a whole."

Please don't get me wrong, I can fully appreciate what a hard and thankless task it must be for teachers these days especially in secondary schools and I wholly accept that a good proportion of the blame can be laid firmly at the feet of some parents and some of the students themselves.

By the same token, there are also a fair few teachers who are quite frankly not up to scratch either. I can give you at least 3 separate examples of teachers who are no longer working at my son's school because of complaints from parents about their abysmal standard of teaching and inability to control the students.

I have to say though, in fairness, there are more good teachers there than bad.. although the school does seem to rely an awful lot on using supply teachers for some reason.

I don't know what the answer is, but I strongly object to our young people being lumped together as a whole and branded as lazy or unwilling to learn.

[*.*..lola..*.*]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
Don't forget the dreaded perfectly aimed missile,, the blackboard wiper!

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Ouch....I remember it well LOL