07-12-2013 2:55 PM
To some, it could be said NM was a Saint-like inspiration to billions, whose will and determination brought down a Fascist regime and ideology, to others he'll always be a "terrorist" and does not deserve any acclaim whatsoever.
Do you think NM deserves to be considered the last 'great' World leader?
And considering the circumstances at the time, was the ANC’s 'armed struggle' inevitable in order to make any sort of 'progress' in overthrowing apartheid?
22-12-2013 11:01 AM
@ronnybabes wrote:I said that Churchill, and Mandella were the latest...
Eh? Churchill died in 1965.
22-12-2013 11:16 AM
All the more reason to state what was meant by "World Leader".
A World Leader could be someone who leads a country on the World stage like a President or Prime Minister or it could mean someone who led (at least some of) the World with their influence.
It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.
22-12-2013 1:26 PM
@cee-dee wrote:All the more reason to state what was meant by "World Leader".
A World Leader could be someone who leads a country on the World stage like a President or Prime Minister or it could mean someone who led (at least some of) the World with their influence.
True. There's no reason why someone politically influential on a global scale like MLK can't be described as a great "world leader", despite not being head of state.. On the other hand, technically a leading multinational brand of dog food could also be described as a great "world leader" - but not really in the context of this thread.
Also, options for 'great world leaders' - living or dead - need not be disqualified should their residence or gravestone be located beyond the White Cliffs of Dover.
22-12-2013 3:45 PM
After de Klerk ended apartheid and Mandela was elected president, he did well to avoid the country falling apart, by convincing white peopole that they had a future in South Africa. But other than that, he was a worse than ordinary president. He did little to resist the drift to cronyism and corruption, was a poor executive, and never deployed his talents to tame Mugabe or ease the horrors afflicting the rest of Africa. He preferred to see out his office meeting celebrities and raising dubious money.
That's not me saying that, it is the Guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/05/nelson-mandela-obituary
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/10/mandela-coverage-banality-of-goodness
Amazing that it takes the Guardian, the second-most left-wing media outlet (not quite as socialist as the BBC), to cut through the hyperbole and state the truth.
23-12-2013 1:00 PM
@sir_arthur_strebe-grebling wrote:After de Klerk ended apartheid and Mandela was elected president, he did well to avoid the country falling apart, by convincing white peopole that they had a future in South Africa. But other than that, he was a worse than ordinary president. He did little to resist the drift to cronyism and corruption, was a poor executive, and never deployed his talents to tame Mugabe or ease the horrors afflicting the rest of Africa. He preferred to see out his office meeting celebrities and raising dubious money.
That's not me saying that, it is the Guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/05/nelson-mandela-obituary
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/10/mandela-coverage-banality-of-goodness
Amazing that it takes the Guardian, the second-most left-wing media outlet (not quite as socialist as the BBC), to cut through the hyperbole and state the truth.
Actually, I think the first link sums up quite nicely why he should be considered a 'great' leader:
"So why use the word great? Perhaps it was Mandela's appreciation of politics as theatre, combined with his talent as the great conciliator. Many will have their own stories of the "Madiba magic" at work. For this writer, it was a small episode that took place on the steps of the civic centre, under a fluttering flag of the Boer republic, in a dusty village in the middle of the giant scrubland known as the Karoo. The date was 15 August 1995.
The place was Orania, Northern Cape, the last refuge of the Afrikaner fundamentalists who fled the approach of modernity with the great trek of 1835-42. The occasion was a tea party. Mandela was the guest, the host was Betsy Verwoerd, the 94-year-old widow of the notorious President Hendrik Verwoerd, whose killing in 1966 had brought no pleasure to his opponents imprisoned on Robben Island – in Long Walk to Freedom, Mandela asserted that neither he nor the ANC had ever supported political assassination. One moment of that extraordinary meeting stands out for me, overwhelming all the other extraordinary events of post-apartheid South Africa.
It came as Betsy, bereft of her glasses, struggled to read a statement to reporters gathered on the steps of the community hall. Mandela, sotto voce, prompted her in Afrikaans, reading over her shoulder. Once finished, she smiled her thanks up at the black man towering over her. He smiled fondly back.
To appreciate that moment, one needs a particular understanding of the South African story. To the world, South Africa has long been literally a black-and-white issue, the goodies and baddies easily identifiable by the colour of their skin. But that was always an over-simplification, qualified from the early days of the anti-apartheid struggle by the likes of Fischer, the Rev Beyers Naudé and Slovo, and compromised more recently by the reform movement under De Klerk, who saw the necessity of letting Mandela take the country forward in the election of 1994.
Another way of understanding South Africa is to recognise it as something of an Old Testament story, a tale of people struggling to do right by their gods and failing time and time again. In the second half of the 20th century, these people, exhausted by the struggle with themselves and against one another, had need of a unifying figure to give them a vision of nationhood.
Mandela saw the need, donned the mask that the role demanded and gave his life for his people. There lies his greatness, and hence the tears that flow at his death, in a much beloved country."
23-12-2013 6:20 PM
23-12-2013 6:38 PM
Yes indeedy, BBC, ...creeping communist, socialist, Marxist-Leninist -Stalinist propaganda. First, changing the QT schedule without consultation, next the collectivisation of farming, followed by demands to increase the output of T-34 tanks, and finally the nationalisation of RM debt and pensions ....oh, condems have already done the latter.
23-12-2013 6:46 PM
This thread is closely monitored. All posters should stay politically correct. Otherwise...................
24-12-2013 10:01 AM
@malacandran wrote:All posters should stay politically correct. Otherwise...................
Funny you should say that. The QT in SA was anything but PC. The ANC were getting ripped a new one - it was a far cry from the NM 'love in' I expect many were expecting.
24-12-2013 12:10 PM
the ANC hasn't been popular for a long time, and everyone is aware of the high level of corruption within the organisation.
That said, there was still a huge respect for Mandela, when I was in SA