It's stuff like this that puts me off EU

[suzieseaside]

We now might be fined up to £93 million for discriminatory lorry tax

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/eu-threatens-to-take-britain-to-court-over-lorry-tax/

I wonder how many lawyers in Europe are making money on the back of endless and complex EU legislation

[artful_dodgings]

Oh at least a couple I should think. *removes tongue from cheek*

[suzieseaside]

Lawyers and Bankers - always the winners!

Having a big change of heart this afternoon, and finding reasons to support a leave vote

http://getbritainout.org/eu-myths-facts/

Still 8 weeks to go, but I'm going to take some convincing about staying in now.

[fallen-archie]

Classic example of the federalist using the single market to bring in a single state by the back door.
We must be allowed to promote and maintain our cultural identity and we can whilst trading fairly with other Euopean partners.
The damn French are at the heart of this so perhaps we should take back Britanny.

[upthecreekyetagain]

It's the idea of a Federal Europe that I find most attractive.   Federalism works very successfully in the USA and Australia.

If politicians would be honest enough to openly support the aim of a Federal Europe it would make proposals to remain in Europe far easier to justify.

Instead they try to deny this is the final destination of theEU which makes the Brexit arguments more credible.

[fallen-archie]

It's a fair point, because in the states they have managed to retain some regional identity around a common language. In Europe we look similar but have developed independently, can federalism work while at the same time preserving culture and identity?

[upthecreekyetagain]

I really don't know the answer to that - maybe it would work, maybe not - what I do know is that at the moment there is just one point of view on federalism - Brexit claim that is the way the EU is going, and don't discuss potential dangers in that and those in favour of staying argue the point not by discussing potential benefits but by simply denying the EU is moving towards federalism.

[fallen-archie]

Quite so, but the tide is slowly turning against those trying to impose the single market single nation model. Last February I was sat at a pool bar drinking a small cocktail in the company of a Dutchman, an Austrian, a Norwegian and a German. All wanted to retain some autonomy and identity, they all berated the EU for it's lack of accountability and they were scathing over the excesses, their words not mine. Did they want to go it alone? A resounding No, will they support the EU as currently formed? another resounding No. All wanted Reform and a more democratic approach. Hardly a scientific sample but that was a single example. Those I met who were not in the EU wanted to be in those In wanted change.

[upthecreekyetagain]

My response to that is that the EU does need to be reformed to make it more democratic and that can be achieved by making the European Parliament the real power house rather than just a rubber stamping machine for the Council of Ministers - in the same way that Congress is in the US. 

This wouldn't mean loss of identity, try asking anyone from Texas to describe themselves and their first response is to say they are Texan and then American.

[suzieseaside]

That sums it up really.  Decent idea in principle, didn't really work in practice.

I am cynical about whether those who have (and have had) power and influence on how the EU has evolved are sufficiently competent.

Incompetence is everywhere, throughout organisations and governments, in this country and elsewhere, so perhaps forging a successful European Union that works for all members without top heavy bureaucracy and over-regulation is too big an ask.. 

[aernethril]

The difference between the USA and Australia and the EU though is that they are relatively young countries which have developed largely with English speaking migrants taking over the countries in the first place.

The EU is a collection of ancient and very separate countries that have had their very separate identities and customs for far longer and are not joined by a common language or even a common approach.

I don't think we can get the EU to reform because the unelected ministers and those who are effectively ruling the roost will not want it.  There are just too many different countries, some forming their own buddy-blocks already who have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

The UK simple no longer has a loud enough voice and we certainly no longer command the respect we once had.  We have become too useful and are expected to toe the line.

And right now, quite frankly we simply do not have a politician with enough clout and cajones to really get the reform going.

Then again, there is the issue of Turkey which Germany seems to be negotiating with as if they are running the whole show - well, perhaps they are, but there's nothing democratic about it at all.