Immigration. Points system?

[cee-dee]

Are you in favour of a points system? If so, why so?

Me? No. I think that before any other factors are considered, several fundamental issues should be satisfied.

At the top of the list should be a good standard of spoken English and a "reasonable" standard of written English. Then, a definitive acceptance of the British way of life, behavour and dress.

Really, if you can't satisfy those fundamentals, why the heck do you want to come here?

OK folks, what have you got to say on the subject?

[evoman3957]

Equal in worth.........Yes......although that's debatable in some cases.

Equal in ability........No......that's just the way of the world and to covet the ability of a person, just because one doesn't  have it ; is to reduce ones worth.

[astrologica]

FD.....Yes, I believe that we absolutely do have the right to ask people to limit their families. Indeed....I think it is our absolute duty to do so, for the sake of our children, and our children's children. There is no way that the human race can carry on reproducing at the rate that it has. Overpopulation is the one single biggest threat to this planet and the Human race. If anyone doesn't believe this, I would suggest a visit to Populationmatters.org.

The world's resources are finite, and if people want to have the same sort of lives for their children as we have had, then those resources will have to be shared out between fewer people. Anyone who can do basic Arithmetic should be able to work out that a family of four is easier to house, feed, educate and keep healthy, than a family of eight or ten. You talk of restricting people's rights to have as many children as they want. Well...along with rights come responsibilities. No-one should have a child that they cannot hope to feed, clothe, educate etc. The religions that I specifically mentioned in my post are very Medieval in their practices, and have no thought for the type of lives that their children will have. We can't blame them...this is how they are brainwashed and brought up....to reproduce as fast as they can. They do not stop to consider what sort of life their children will have. Do we want that attitude here in this country? NO! Resources are finite here too. This is a tiny Island and the population per capita is already far too high. So I think it is absolutely right for this country to discuss limiting the size of families...we can't afford not to. The days of rights to do as we please are long gone as far as population goes...we need to exercise responsibility instead.

Sorry to go on about overpopulation, but it is a particular interest of mine. I have been interested in it for years, and to me it is simple common sense, but no-one wants to bring the ugly subject up. Visit Populationmatters.org.

[Anonymous]

Maybe we can turn everyone into a smoker, that will take care of quite a few people.

Plus if we let Monsanto have the freedom to mess up our world a bit more than that will take care of the rest..

Problem solved.

[cee-dee]

Overpopulation is another issue?

I supposed it could be construed that it's inter-connected with the immigration issue as in my OP because of certain sections of the population now here who persist in having more children than they can support, the offspring of whom then go on to perpetuate that way of life?

Anyway, we're no nearer proposing a new "way" of considering new immigrants coming here or how to track down the million or so illegals currently here already or even what to do with them if they are found?

[**forum-decorum**]

---

@astrologica wrote:

FD.....Yes, I believe that we absolutely do have the right to ask people to limit their families. Indeed....I think it is our absolute duty to do so, for the sake of our children, and our children's children. There is no way that the human race can carry on reproducing at the rate that it has. Overpopulation is the one single biggest threat to this planet and the Human race. If anyone doesn't believe this, I would suggest a visit to Populationmatters.org.

The world's resources are finite, and if people want to have the same sort of lives for their children as we have had, then those resources will have to be shared out between fewer people. Anyone who can do basic Arithmetic should be able to work out that a family of four is easier to house, feed, educate and keep healthy, than a family of eight or ten. You talk of restricting people's rights to have as many children as they want. Well...along with rights come responsibilities. No-one should have a child that they cannot hope to feed, clothe, educate etc. The religions that I specifically mentioned in my post are very Medieval in their practices, and have no thought for the type of lives that their children will have. We can't blame them...this is how they are brainwashed and brought up....to reproduce as fast as they can. They do not stop to consider what sort of life their children will have. Do we want that attitude here in this country? NO! Resources are finite here too. This is a tiny Island and the population per capita is already far too high. So I think it is absolutely right for this country to discuss limiting the size of families...we can't afford not to. The days of rights to do as we please are long gone as far as population goes...we need to exercise responsibility instead.

Sorry to go on about overpopulation, but it is a particular interest of mine. I have been interested in it for years, and to me it is simple common sense, but no-one wants to bring the ugly subject up. Visit Populationmatters.org.

---

Astro,. The population prob!em though is not just down to immigrants invading any particular country.  Xxx

Anyway, how would such a solution be implemented and enforced, is it morally right to restrict one person's human right to safeguard another's. If we are talking a person's sexual rights, then look at societies argument for same sex rights, you say those people have rights then in another breath choose to take (in my opinion) someone with natural sexual rights away. Where do we draw the line.

How would it be done, as has been pointed out peoples beliefs and religion comes into play,. So there would be discrimination there too.

I don't believe it is a case of trying to reduce the population increase, it goes globally far deepeer, every country on this planet has a duty toward their peoples in so many different areas and they are all failing miserably.

This planet is large enough and quite capable of housing and feeding all its population. Man kind needs to work in unity wiping out greed, lawlessness and hate, can you ever see that happening?   I can't.

[**forum-decorum**]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Anyway, we're no nearer proposing a new "way" of considering new immigrants coming here or how to track down the million or so illegals currently here already or even what to do with them if they are found?

---

Do you think the problem could ever be solved?

Do we have the right to decide what happens to people once found.  

[astrologica]

CeeDee.....sorry to drag up the subject of overpopulation, although it does have some bearing on your original post.  I think all immigration should be suspended for the immediate future. We should bring in identity cards, and that would weed out some of those who are here illegally. The police should be given the right to stop anyone that they suspect does not have the right to be here. Anyone found to be here illegally should be deported to their own country. And if their home countries refuse to have them, then bring in sanctions. These are criminals. We have enough people here to do the work. We should make caring for the elderly a respected profession, with double the present wage, and proper training. And once the Jungle camp in Calais is razed to the ground, they should all be made to go home or apply for asylum in any European country. Any children there under ten who profess to have family here, should be allowed to come, provided their families take care of them. And by children I don't mean the 16 and 17 year old 'children' that the government are talking about. Funny how these 16 and 17 year olds are all male...they are having a laugh...at our expense.

I think it was Evo in a previous post who said we could become a divided country. We are almost that now. We have one half of the population who can clearly see the future of this country if immigration is allowed to continue. The other half are the happy liberal Leftists who have a very rosy view of Humankind, and who would say let them all come here, but cannot make a single suggestion as how society is going to cope. We will not cope....there will be big trouble.

oh...and an extra suggestion...the Government could bring in legally assisted suicide for all those old decrepit pensioners who have had a good life and would prefer to bow out gracefully rather than be a drain on this overburdened country, or who might not want to live in the midst of a civil war in a third world country. 

There you are CD.... a few suggestions.

[astrologica]

Limiting the size of people's families is not taking away their sexual rights...it's dealing with their reproductive rights.

And it goes for everyone, of every religion or sexual persuasion. 

We have climate change, and water is going to be in very short supply in some parts of the world. Human beings are sometimes not very altruistic....have you not heard of the Selfish Gene? Bees in a hive work in harmony, for the good of the hive. We humans should work in harmony for the sake of our planet and for the sake of Humanity, but where resources are scarce the selfish gene comes into play.

As to how it would be done.....there could be rewards for those who limit their families, and penalties for those who don't. Simples.

[cee-dee]

There's just the matter of proving exactly which country the illegals come from? Their idea is to not reveal where they originate and because those liberals (with a small "L") of whom you speak have twisted our Laws in such a way that under present Laws, those illegals can't be "removed", the illegals remain here.

The stupidity of it is that they get released only to disappear again so what's needed first are some changes to the Law. The first of which should be that any illegal should be detained (and remain in detention) until such time as they either admit to their country of origin or it's proved where they originated.

[astrologica]

I'm sure a simple blood test would prove which country they come from...it shouldn't be outside the bounds of possibility. If I want to find out where my ancestors were from, I can do that, with a blood sample.And if they won't say where they are from, tell them they are going to Syria, or Israel, or the North Pole. They'll soon squeak. But I suppose taking a blood sample would 'invade their human rights'....you are quite right...the law needs to be changed, and we need to get tough.

[mikes*corvettes]

Well it's a start.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/07/britain-build-great-wall-calais-southern-border-stop-migr...

[astrologica]

They'll find a way of scaling that MC...they are nothing if not inventive. What a waste of money. They need the Army in there.

[evoman3957]

When I was at school, 4 meters was about 12 feet........so a 13 ft wall would be only 1 ft higher than this.  I wish somebody would save me from these " Air Heads " at the top and the TERRIFIC ideas they have.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1208490/How-scale-wall-four-metre-wall-ease.html

[upthecreekyetagain]

---

@astrologica wrote:

Limiting the size of people's families is not taking away their sexual rights...it's dealing with their reproductive rights.

And it goes for everyone, of every religion or sexual persuasion. 

We have climate change, and water is going to be in very short supply in some parts of the world. Human beings are sometimes not very altruistic....have you not heard of the Selfish Gene? Bees in a hive work in harmony, for the good of the hive. We humans should work in harmony for the sake of our planet and for the sake of Humanity, but where resources are scarce the selfish gene comes into play.

As to how it would be done.....there could be rewards for those who limit their families, and penalties for those who don't. Simples.

---

It is this 'selfish gene' that is very much to the forefront in those who won't help those in need, the refugees, the hungry and the thirsty.

[mikes*corvettes]

20,000 volts running across the top of the wall and a 20 foot ditch on the other side full of punji sticks should stop even the most determined ones.

As long as there are  clear signs all along it's length spelling out the dangers it will stop all the liberals getting their panties in a twist.

[astrologica]

OK Creeks......I have a suggestion for you. I read in my newspaper this morning of a family from the Congo...parents with EIGHT children..(my previous post about family size limitation is very relevant here), who live in this country and are whinging, moaning and complaining that the FIVE bedrooms house they have been allocated, free on the British taxpayer, is not big enough. They say they have been neglected....they are in such a state of indignation it's unbelievable. The mother does not work..the latest child is a babe in arms. The father is here to study MentalHealth nursing and does not work. He should get out and get a job, and pay for his own desired accommodation. My grand-daughter is also studying to be a Mental Health professional, and also works very hard in every minute she can for the Police Force. Cases like this make so blerdy angry...and then we have people who criticise people like me who dares to say that we do not want the likes of these people here. If you want to help these people, why don't you offer to put up these ten ungrateful wretches at your home? What would you do with them? Next year they will probably have another child...he seems to be very good at that. They have an exaggerated sense of entitlement and outrage and expect everything they WANT free, without exercising any responsibility whatsoever. I know what I would do with them....ship them all back where they came from, and see how they like the accommodation there.

sorry if this sounds like a rant...but that is exactly what it is. Reading that put me off my porridge this morning and sent my BP soaring.

So Creeks.....what would you do with these people, and others like them. Will you have them to live with you? Or give them some cash to pay rent on a bigger property..while the father sits on his backside? I refuse to be made to feel guilty because I do not want the likes of these immigrants here.

[evoman3957]

God forbid there should ever be another War, I'd have more of the enemy in my own country; than I would abroad.  I remember when people put their fellow countrymen & women first, in fact died for them NO LESS.  Now their ill thought out actions and pathetic idealism, would see those fellow countrymen & women pay the price for their naive stupidity.  It's true what they say these days, if you want loyalty........" BUY A DOG ".

[jd.linklater]

---

@astrologica wrote:

FD.....Yes, I believe that we absolutely do have the right to ask people to limit their families. Indeed....I think it is our absolute duty to do so, for the sake of our children, and our children's children. There is no way that the human race can carry on reproducing at the rate that it has. Overpopulation is the one single biggest threat to this planet and the Human race. If anyone doesn't believe this, I would suggest a visit to Populationmatters.org.

The world's resources are finite, and if people want to have the same sort of lives for their children as we have had, then those resources will have to be shared out between fewer people. Anyone who can do basic Arithmetic should be able to work out that a family of four is easier to house, feed, educate and keep healthy, than a family of eight or ten. You talk of restricting people's rights to have as many children as they want. Well...along with rights come responsibilities. No-one should have a child that they cannot hope to feed, clothe, educate etc. The religions that I specifically mentioned in my post are very Medieval in their practices, and have no thought for the type of lives that their children will have. We can't blame them...this is how they are brainwashed and brought up....to reproduce as fast as they can. They do not stop to consider what sort of life their children will have. Do we want that attitude here in this country? NO! Resources are finite here too. This is a tiny Island and the population per capita is already far too high. So I think it is absolutely right for this country to discuss limiting the size of families...we can't afford not to. The days of rights to do as we please are long gone as far as population goes...we need to exercise responsibility instead.

Sorry to go on about overpopulation, but it is a particular interest of mine. I have been interested in it for years, and to me it is simple common sense, but no-one wants to bring the ugly subject up. Visit Populationmatters.org.

---

Overpopulation has always been of great concern to me too Astro. Take a look at these two links as a perfect illustration of what you've outlined above.

These are the 20 countries with the highest birthrates in the world today, as you can see all but one of them are on the African continent.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/262884/countries-with-the-highest-fertility-rates/

Now take a look at the world's 20 poorest countries.

http://www.rantlifestyle.com/2014/06/18/20-poorest-countries-in-the-world/

As you can see all but  two are again African countries, in fact the lists are almost identical. How can these people not see what results their lifestyles are going to have long term? It's a complete no brainer, they are breeding themselves out of existence. It is largely people from these countries that are gathering in their thousands in Calais, how many more will be making their way here if we allow them in? How big will their families become in the future when they have more resouces at their disposal? How much longer can the rest of the civilised world keep dipping in their pockets and providing aid to support this totally unsustainable situation?

[astrologica]

JD...I fail to see why Governments cannot foresee this problem. It's not rocket science. Just this one family alone will cost this country thousands and thousands of pounds.  I forgot to add to my post that they have already racked up a bill of £34.000 in hotel bills while they were refusing to accept the houses offered to them. And in twenty years time, all those children will need a house each for their own families. Where are these houses going to be built? And this is just one family. There are thousands more like them. In my opinion the government know this is going to be a massive problem...a problem of such huge proportions that they dare not even think about it, let alone do anything about it. 

Also this morning, on BBC news, we hear that newly arrived migrants in the Calais Jungle are complaining that the charities and authorities have no accommodation for them. This sense of entitlement takes one's breath away. I wonder what sort of accommodation they are expecting if they ever do actually get to The UK. Thank Heavens that enough people had enough common sense to vote to leave the EU. We need to leave NOW...before Mother Merkel invites any more people to come. 

And  meanwhile....we have our ships, along with other EU country's ships, running a ferry  rescue service for migrants in the Mediterranean. Madness...utter madness.

[jd.linklater]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Are you in favour of a points system? If so, why so?

Me? No. I think that before any other factors are considered, several fundamental issues should be satisfied.

At the top of the list should be a good standard of spoken English and a "reasonable" standard of written English. Then, a definitive acceptance of the British way of life, behavour and dress.

Really, if you can't satisfy those fundamentals, why the heck do you want to come here?

OK folks, what have you got to say on the subject?

---

Ok back to the original topic. Do excuse my getting sidelined by the subject of overpopulation but I do think it's important for incomers to appreciate that families continually bringing more children into the world than they can reasonably afford to support is irresponsible behaviour.

As regards the points system, yes I think it's a reasonable idea but I think a good command of spoken and written English should be part of the points process. I also think as others have said that for whichever system is adopted, the first step should be the issue of Identity Cards for all. This would also have the advantage of identifying illegals already here.

At first glance Theresa May's plan to only allow people in who have confirmed job offers does admittedly seem preferential, but I can see that being open to abuse just as any other system would be. We've seen examples in the past of students being allowed here to study at institutions that have turned out to be completely fictional, checks must have been done to vouch for the validity of these applications so clearly the checking system in these cases fell well short of what we would expect.

Are we to think the same won't happen with jobs being offered by fictional companies? How many applicants will be offered work in eg my cousin's/uncle's/brother in law's kebab shop/asian restaurant/takeaway. Are firm job offers to include seasonal work, temporary work, part-time work? There are no details forthcoming as far as I can see.

In my opinion acceptable job offers should be confined purely to essential services, we need people who are skilled in the trades where we have a shortfall. We don't need any more hotel staff, agricultural workers, car wash operators and the like who will have to spend at least half the year either claiming job seekers allowance or working in the black economy or both.