Illiteracy and innumeracy?

[cee-dee]

What do you think of this?:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31079515

Personally I think it's a good idea.

When I was at school (!!!) there used to be tables on the back of all excercise books and large posters of tables on the walls. We were encouraged to make our own posters to put on our bedroom walls with the idea that you put up one poster near your bed for a while, then changed it for another.

At one time, tables went "out of fashion" because critics said it encouraged children to run through a table instead of "instantly knowing" what a particular multiple was but I found that once a table had been thoroughly memorised, you "instantly" knew what the multiple was.

As to literacy and spelling.......... oh dear, there's some fine examples of "how not to" on here......?

One thing that stands out is the growth of sans serif typefaces with Arial and Helvetica leading the way?

I like the old style typefaces with serifs because I think they're easier to "instantly" read.

What typefaces are used in textbooks today?

I like these:-

Times New Roman.

Century schoolbook.

Bookman old style.

Book antiqua.

An example of why I prefer a typeface with serifs can be found in the thread title "Illiteracy.."

[joamur_gosof]

I don;t mean to take away the importance of the subject ,but I see it as a one way ticket to have fewer school teachers and therefore less education chances for the young and also it just seems like the same old gov interfering in something they don't really give a monkeys about apart from pre election rambles'

On the other hand take the govs out of it ,let the teachers decide how best to reach this aim and let them implement it without the gov having anything to say or do about it,the only gov interface should be if local councils ,teachers and parents have concerns that they are not reaching the agenda ...look into why (do not pump money or Orwell into it) and if indeed they have an education secretary who knows anything, send her/him down to help...as if she/he cannot get the place back on track...sack them as a waste of money and replace them with someone who has the experience to help all get on track.

Reading is important ,numbers  not as much and spelling and grammar a bit less...but all are a priority in academic education.

I would like to see a technical education option for the young and a practical option also...a bit like USA education system

[cee-dee]

The numbers of teachers can hardly be an issue but the quality might? If the numbers of teachers is anything to "go by", they're not doing a very good job at the moment because the standard of literacy isn't good and spelling is atrocious.

Old hands will know I've said this before but when "they" tried to mass-produce teachers (= give them a short-cut in to the job) it introduced a militant bunch of people who've now mass-produced more of similar ilk.

Those "new" people looked at older teachers who had, during their life as teachers accumulated a nice house, nice family life and nice cars. Those "new" people took no account that the older teachers had carefully earned their position, the newcomers wanted the same and they wanted it NOW. After all, they were teachers just the same as the older ones?

When you looked at the "type" of people going to the new-fangled "teacher training colleges" you saw a dirty, scruffy, lazy, indisciplined, casual bunch of people who had no regard for punctuality, they were going to teach the kids to be just like them with the same attitude to the "old school" and they did!

[023mjc]

I couldn't agree more cee-dee.

The standard of education in school leavers these days is dire. Every one makes the odd mistake/typo including me but I often fall about laughing at what I read. What gets me the most is that the wrong spelling often results in the wrong word altogether, as in there, their and they're; two to and too; and bought and brought...........I'm sure you know a few more.

What about all the posts we read on the boards without capitals or punctuation. My grand mother used to write 4 page letters without any capitals, full stops, or paragraphs, but then she was only educated up to the age of eleven, and due to family issues her education was sparse. Sometimes she didn't put the pages in the right order so you never knew where to start. But I could always recognise the end - " ill write again next week take care of your self sweetheart be good write back soon give my love to your mum and dad all my love nanny"

[joamur_gosof]

I couldn't disagree more cd

Here's why..my at school had both types of teacher you describe...my geography ,english literature  and history teachers being the laid back type ,my english language and maths teachers being of the old school type.

I left school not knowing a comma from a semi colon and my maths was basic to say the least....my love of history ,geography and reading and writing literature ,with a bit of art (i am useless at but love) is still second to non,and had it not been for a good job offer I would have probably sped towards higher education within those fields...but one of the main reasons I took the job over further education was my maths and english language teachers intolerence levels for tidyness ,timelyness etc...(science was a mix but I wasnt any good at it so middle ground to me)

I still have a problem today with people who say ''you must'' which means 'you will' really to them. Children being forced to 'be like this and act like that ' will not  imo, those allowed an enviorment of relaxed freedom to learn will (also imo)

My opinion on governments being involed in schooling is Orwell like dictatorship,that will drive out teachers who like the children do not want to work in such 'do this' conditions. I have zero problem in a good standard of both maths and english or tidyness come to that,but punctuality I am not so sure about and forcing against the grain ie no other options (like a technical school without academics) again I am not so sure about ..it breeds contempt .

If the gov want to be involved it should be the the invention of new ways to educate the masses of different personalities that exist ..not forcing a doctrine upon same said and punishments for those who become lost .

Now I will also say the fault  of all education standards (up to a certain level) is on the individual..ie my own lack of interest in learning the subjects are mine entirerly but I feel it stemed from those teachers who made it horrible and urged me to be free of them...another option available where at very least I had the right to change the teacher (atleast to see if I could muster an interest in it) would have been nice.

Head teachers should sort the teachers and the standards of teaching via parent and teacher meets ..not pillocks that lost us our money ten fold and gibber endlessly about how they are good for us.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

The numbers of teachers can hardly be an issue but the quality might? If the numbers of teachers is anything to "go by", they're not doing a very good job at the moment because the standard of literacy isn't good and spelling is atrocious.

Old hands will know I've said this before but when "they" tried to mass-produce teachers (= give them a short-cut in to the job) it introduced a militant bunch of people who've now mass-produced more of similar ilk.

Those "new" people looked at older teachers who had, during their life as teachers accumulated a nice house, nice family life and nice cars. Those "new" people took no account that the older teachers had carefully earned their position, the newcomers wanted the same and they wanted it NOW. After all, they were teachers just the same as the older ones?

When you looked at the "type" of people going to the new-fangled "teacher training colleges" you saw a dirty, scruffy, lazy, indisciplined, casual bunch of people who had no regard for punctuality, they were going to teach the kids to be just like them with the same attitude to the "old school" and they did!

---

I don't know where you get your impression of what schools and the teachers in those schools are like but it is completely contrary to my own experience.  As an ex-school governor, ex-member of three PTAs and a daughter who is herself now a teacher, I have to say I really don't recognise the picture you have painted.

From my perspective the problem has not been, and is not now, the quality of teachers nor the training they have to complete to become teachers but rather the constant interference from central government.  Why do you think that so many of the "old teachers" you refer to retired early? - it wasn't conflict with new colleagues but disillusionment with the curriculum and "new methods" they were forced to use.

The curriculum is constantly changing, targets are set in terms of results nationwide without taking into account local special needs and to top it all bureaucrats are setting the methods that teachers have to use in their classes. 

The people who are actually the professionals, the head teacher and their staff, have very little say in how they teach the children in their care - if you want standardised teaching that doesn't take into account the needs of the individual students then the way to achieve this is to replace teachers with technology!

Government's job in the education field is. in my opinion, to guide rather than instruct, to set standards not targets and to assist schools in practical terms in regards to finance, resources and checks.  In general OFSTED inspections fit within these aims, where they fall down though is placing higher priority on teaching methods, (as set down by government), rather than the performance of the pupils being taught - this is not the fault of OFSTED but rather that of politicians.

If there is one area that would dramatically improve student performance then this has to be greater parent and community involvment.  It is no coincidence that the most successful schools also have very good relationships with the parents of pupils.

[joamur_gosof]

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@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

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@cee-dee wrote:

The numbers of teachers can hardly be an issue but the quality might? If the numbers of teachers is anything to "go by", they're not doing a very good job at the moment because the standard of literacy isn't good and spelling is atrocious.

Old hands will know I've said this before but when "they" tried to mass-produce teachers (= give them a short-cut in to the job) it introduced a militant bunch of people who've now mass-produced more of similar ilk.

Those "new" people looked at older teachers who had, during their life as teachers accumulated a nice house, nice family life and nice cars. Those "new" people took no account that the older teachers had carefully earned their position, the newcomers wanted the same and they wanted it NOW. After all, they were teachers just the same as the older ones?

When you looked at the "type" of people going to the new-fangled "teacher training colleges" you saw a dirty, scruffy, lazy, indisciplined, casual bunch of people who had no regard for punctuality, they were going to teach the kids to be just like them with the same attitude to the "old school" and they did!

---

I don't know where you get your impression of what schools and the teachers in those schools are like but it is completely contrary to my own experience.  As an ex-school governor, ex-member of three PTAs and a daughter who is herself now a teacher, I have to say I really don't recognise the picture you have painted.

From my perspective the problem has not been, and is not now, the quality of teachers nor the training they have to complete to become teachers but rather the constant interference from central government.  Why do you think that so many of the "old teachers" you refer to retired early? - it wasn't conflict with new colleagues but disillusionment with the curriculum and "new methods" they were forced to use.

The curriculum is constantly changing, targets are set in terms of results nationwide without taking into account local special needs and to top it all bureaucrats are setting the methods that teachers have to use in their classes. 

The people who are actually the professionals, the head teacher and their staff, have very little say in how they teach the children in their care - if you want standardised teaching that doesn't take into account the needs of the individual students then the way to achieve this is to replace teachers with technology!

Government's job in the education field is. in my opinion, to guide rather than instruct, to set standards not targets and to assist schools in practical terms in regards to finance, resources and checks.  In general OFSTED inspections fit within these aims, where they fall down though is placing higher priority on teaching methods, (as set down by government), rather than the performance of the pupils being taught - this is not the fault of OFSTED but rather that of politicians.

If there is one area that would dramatically improve student performance then this has to be greater parent and community involvment.  It is no coincidence that the most successful schools also have very good relationships with the parents of pupils.

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now that I completely agree with

[joamur_gosof]

sorry,was just supposed to quote upthecreeks post

[cee-dee]

Well creeky, I'm pleased you've been happy with the teachers you've encountered however......

As to the curriculum constantly changing, who provoked the changes? "Experts" who convinced "governments" to make changes and just where did those "experts" come from? = Academia!

Until I became a full time ebayer (!!!) I had a shop and the people I had the most "trouble" with were teachers and social workers. Talk about thick and lacking basic knowledge not to mention an ignorant attitude and in trying to be pleasant in the face of their inabilities they read that as "patronising".

In Wales, the emphasis is on learning Welsh and all things Welsh and some of the teachers are thoroughly unpleasant in the face of parents trying to ensure a good standard of English. I accept that there should be some understanding of the language and that it should be encouraged to live on but when you watch the news and see children in schools in Africa and the Indian continent speaking to reporters, what language are those children speaking? Not Welsh anyway! I wonder why "Explore Learning" has such a good attendence with children from enlightened parents?

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Well creeky, I'm pleased you've been happy with the teachers you've encountered however......

As to the curriculum constantly changing, who provoked the changes? "Experts" who convinced "governments" to make changes and just where did those "experts" come from? = Academia!

Until I became a full time ebayer (!!!) I had a shop and the people I had the most "trouble" with were teachers and social workers. Talk about thick and lacking basic knowledge not to mention an ignorant attitude and in trying to be pleasant in the face of their inabilities they read that as "patronising".

In Wales, the emphasis is on learning Welsh and all things Welsh and some of the teachers are thoroughly unpleasant in the face of parents trying to ensure a good standard of English. I accept that there should be some understanding of the language and that it should be encouraged to live on but when you watch the news and see children in schools in Africa and the Indian continent speaking to reporters, what language are those children speaking? Not Welsh anyway! I wonder why "Explore Learning" has such a good attendence with children from enlightened parents?

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I think you have just backed up my post with the above - who is it that insists Welsh as a language is a compulsory subject for all children in Welsh schools and also established Welsh Medium schools where Welsh is the first language and subjects are taught in Welsh? - answer, politicians.

With over 400,000 teachers working in more than 24,000 state schools then I accept that the small sample of teachers that I have encountered can not be taken as an absolute indication of the standards overall - all I can say is that my experience of teachers obviously does not match yours.

Whilst it is certainly true that 'academia' have a major input into the design of the national core curriculum it is politicians who decide whether or not to accept the recommendations of the 'Expert Panel' - a panel incidentally consisting of three university professors and head of assesment at Cambridge University - ne'er an actual teacher in sight!

[joamur_gosof]

Ne'er a teacher in sight............that's my point exactly,if these 'experts' are that, they can get off their backsides and sit in on the problem schools and if that doesn't work ,well sack em as they are useless at achieving  what they expect others to achieve... or the job under these gov targets is impossible ,in which case sack em as it was their proposals.

I like this idea best ..Govs to set a standard not a target...as their own standards fly well below that of your average human being of common sense value ,we will then have to allow people who teach to set the standards via parent and teacher outlines and the gov and its advisors can save money by getting real jobs (that they may be good at) and chipping in instead of taking out.

[joamur_gosof]

On schools that are in Wales ,well I cannot comment as I  am only going off my experience with english schools...if they are as bad as cd says then again missy education secratary better get off her lardy and go live and school her children (if she has any) in Wales and we can see if she still thinks the proposals from a pub are the right way to go.

[5129frederick]

I went to about eight schools - all private, due to my late father's nomadic lifestyle but the best school by far was an old style boarding school in Hertfordshire, where you had your own desk with it's inkwell set in to the desk, you all sat facing the front, and Sir would come in with a mandatory suit and tie.  He'd put his briefcase on the table and say good morning to which you all stood up and replied "Good morning, Sir." sat down and got on with your work.  We were no angels.  If we misbehaved we got the cane.  Full stop.  BUT, you knew the score.  Our maths teacher took a very keen interest in how things progressed.  There were about twenty of us in a class, and he split us up into about three groups.  There were three or four eggheads - way, way ahead of the rest of the group.  He set them G.C.E. O-level work - not GCSE but proper examination paper stuff to stop them getting bored and disruptive.  Then there was the run of the mill group, and then finally there were three or four absolute dunderheads who, through no fault of their own would never make the grade academically.  To stop them dreaming away for the next forty minutes, he set them very easy work.  I wasn't all that hot on maths so he set me work separately.  Then one day, he set me long multiplication including the use of decimal points.  I gulped when I saw it.  He smiled.  "Do you know how to do it, Woody"

"No, Sir."  I replied.

"Well don't be frightened.  Pull a chair up and sit next to me, and I'll show you how it's done."  No eggageration, five minutes later I was on my own, because he really knew his job.  Fast forward to my daughter's school when she was about twelve, and it was all open plan, four desks sat facing one another and "Sir" was strolling round in corduroys and a roll-neck sweater.  If "Sir" answers to the name of John and is one of the lads being everybody's friend, where are their peers?  Who do the kids have to look up to?

[cee-dee]

I can equate with some of that.

We were supposed to stand as Sir came in and sit down when he said so.  It depended on which "Sir" came in and what sort of mood he was in. One had a saying "Stand up, sit down, you're in, go and get me that book". "In" being in detention and "that book" was the detention book = stay behind after school on a Thursday. You knew there was going to be trouble if he came in with "that book" under his arm.

The thing is, all the teachers (all men) had degrees and some had a string of qualifications. They were far from perfect as people and some had an attitude but at least we learned how to read and write English well and to spell words properly, we learned how to do all the maths we were likely to meet up with in life, we also learned how to debate a subject, argue our corner (without it developing in to an exchange of abuse) and put forward our points in a proper manner. Speaking of "manner", we were expected to have excellent manners too.

I can see now where they were trying to lead us though I can't say I found it an enjoyable experience.

[upthecreekyetagain]

I have no doubt that if the old school systems of the last century hadn't failed so many children and that if literacy rates then weren't so much lower than they are today that a valid argument could be put forward for their return.

[joamur_gosof]

I think this is where this subject get needlessly criss crossed

First there is no doubting in my mind the value of a good teacher..one who doesn't just force 1 and 1 is 2 into your head but one whom learns you to respect  (all things) and within that all things are time taking exercises to make sure you get it right (for the care of others)

Second there is absolutely no need to have accept or employ on any level a  bully  a control freak or just a useless ,and that's where a gov body keeping an eye is required (that's it as far as their involvement should go) and the first point of call then is the head teacher who takes a salary to not allow that to happen.

I feel it's important to learn to respect each and every task you undertake in life...and that's the only subject that should be a national agenda in schools ...everything else should be taught as fredricks post says..on a level of the individual for the individual.

just my opinion of course.

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

I'm not responding to any point in particular here, but I do find it interesting the way the govt announces things like this.  Children knowing their times tables by the end of primary school is not very controversial or even overly demanding, but you can announce it in such a way as to imply at the moment no 11 yr old can do this and what is needed is a return to methods today's pensioners would recognise as effective.  (It also neatly skirts other issues that the govt has no will to tackle but that might make a bigger difference to standards overall.)  Then get some minister to discourse on how 3 yr olds in Korea go to evening classes after a full regular school day, and you further imply that our children are missing out in some way and if only they put in inhumane hrs all shortfalls would be immediately righted.

Is education worse today than it was in the 60s?  Or better?  In reality, it is probably just different.  The curriculum is wider, but that automatically means less deep, in that school hrs and general IQ have remained the same in that time.  It is more inclusive of all abilities, but that means a wider range in each group being taught together generally.  The job has changed enormously for teachers, in terms of accountability, record-keeping, paperwork, which is good, but there is also a whole load of other fluff that takes time and energy away from the actual contact with students.  

Could standards in literacy and numeracy be higher?  Yes, probably.  But schools don't operate in a vacuum.  One school I saw on the news was being held up as a great example of improvement (admittedly from a very low benchmark).  The camera panned across the front fo the building, and there was the school's name emblazoned on a huge board.  Let's call it Oak Community School.  How was this shown?  As oak community school.  Well, not a great start for getting across the idea that proper nouns need capital letters.  To my generation, that would have leapt off the screen.  Is it just fitting in with today's culture though, or is it backsliding where standards are concerned?  I suppose we should be grateful it wasn't in text speak!

[cee-dee]

IQ is very varied and always has been. I remember a question in one paper of the 11-plus "How many legs has a three-legged stool?" I suppose today that some kids won't know what a three-legged stool is or why it's only got three legs but when discussing the test afterwards, one lad said he'd answered that question "Five". He insisted their milking stool had five legs and wouldn't have it that milking stools had three legs so they always stood firm on the uneven floor of the cow-shed!

The school curriculum today is wide, far too wide so that not enough time is spent on kids mastering the basic "three Rs". For the first "R", it's so important to be able to read well because it's the key to everything else?

Your point about capital letters is valid but today capital letters are often used (wrongly?) in emphasis of of some item or other. On the other hand, you must have seen great long posts on here with no capital letters, little or no punctuation and no paragraphs?

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

IQ is very varied, but my point was the general level of IQ in the general population has not risen or fallen since the 60s.

Capitals are often used incorrectly.  All the more reason to take every opportunity to use them properly, so that examples are all around.  An institution whose sole aim is to educate failing to use capitals correctly on the board outside seems perverse.  If we are going to change how capitals are used, fair enough.  Language develops over time.  But current rules of grammar, punctuation, etc, need to be adhered to by those responsible for passing on those rules to the next generation, IMV.

[cee-dee]

IQ won't change, levels of intelligence vary between people and sometimes those with a high IQ seem to have little common sense so just what is "intelligence"?