I Dont Like Secret Courts.

[tommy.irene]

Explain why you snatched baby girl at birth: Judge's order to social workers behind forced caesarean

• Sir James Munby has demanded answers in extraordinary case
• The child was taken from the 35-year-old Italian in forced caesarean
• The case shines light on murky secrecy of Court of Protection
  

Seeking answers: The judge who heads the family courts, Sir James Munby, has demanded to know why the girl should not be reunited with her mother

Social workers who made a mother give up her baby after a forced caesarean must explain themselves to Britain’s top family judge.

In a highly unusual intervention, Sir James Munby has demanded to know why the girl should not be reunited with her mother, a 35-year-old Italian.

Fabio Roia, the most senior judge in Milan, said the woman’s treatment by a secret court resembled a horror film – an unprecedented ‘act of extreme violence’ that could not have happened in Italy.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517144/Explain-snatched-baby-girl-birth-Judges-order-social... 

[blackburn_stevie]

There are a number of questions that I would like to see answers to before I can put a tent up in either camp. For instance ......
Why is she not acting as Mother to her other two kids?
Who was it that decided that she should not be looking after them?
According to records from the last few years, can she be trusted to take her medication as and when required?
Was the baby premature?
I ask that last one for a few reasons. For example, If the delivery was done even on the last day of her 2 week training course, then she was 8 and 1/2 months pregnant when she boarded the plane in Italy and,AFAIK, airlines don't let you fly so close to a mother's due date. It would also be very bad form for a company to make a mother make the trip so close to her due date. So was the mother being honest about when the baby was due? If she was telling porkies, why? Or have I read the story wrongly?
There are other questions that I would like to see answers for but those will do for now.

[blackburn_stevie]

There is a comment on the DM website from a person living in Italy with maybe a little more knowledge than the folk screaming about SS actions and the like.
The comment reads (sic) ......
Maybe Essex social workers have done their homework correctly. Here in Italy, this woman's extended family is already caring for 2 other children to which this girl has given birth, who were removed from her care by the Italian courts. She is very, very sick. Maybe the 'extended family' just cannot afford a third; . The economic situation in Italy, except for the very rich, (and this family is not rich) is desperate. This child needs rexcue - and help.

[tommy.irene]

---

@blackburn_stevie wrote:

There is a comment on the DM website from a person living in Italy with maybe a little more knowledge than the folk screaming about SS actions and the like.
The comment reads (sic) ......
Maybe Essex social workers have done their homework correctly. Here in Italy, this woman's extended family is already caring for 2 other children to which this girl has given birth, who were removed from her care by the Italian courts. She is very, very sick. Maybe the 'extended family' just cannot afford a third; . The economic situation in Italy, except for the very rich, (and this family is not rich) is desperate. This child needs rexcue - and help.

---

Then why would the family get lawyers in Italy to fight the case for the mother to have the child back..

[tommy.irene]

Stevie did you really read the story or was it just the comments.... 

Social workers who made a mother give up her baby after a forced caesarean must explain themselves to Britain’s top family judge.

In a highly unusual intervention, Sir James Munby has demanded to know why the girl should not be reunited with her mother, a 35-year-old Italian.

Fabio Roia, the most senior judge in Milan, said the woman’s treatment by a secret court resembled a horror film – an unprecedented ‘act of extreme violence’ that could not have happened in Italy.

The mother, who was suffering from a mental illness, was subjected to a caesarean on the orders of the controversial Court of Protection.

Her ex-husband and her parents, who look after her two other children, insisted they would care for the girl. But, in a second secret hearing, a court ruled that her girl should be removed from her care for adoption by a British family.

Campaigners said it was wrong for a closed-doors court to force a foreign citizen to have an invasive medical procedure and seize her child against her will.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2517144/Explain-snatched-baby-girl-birth-Judges-order-social... 

[blackburn_stevie]

Tommy asked ..... "Then why would the family get lawyers in Italy to fight the case for the mother to have the child back.."
Do we know that these are the same family members that are already looking after her other two kids which were taken from her by an Italian court? It seems to me that an Italian court, with access to medical records and the like, would be in a good position to decide if she was capable of looking after her other 2 kids. They obviously decided that she wasn't.

Tommy then asked ..... "Stevie did you really read the story or was it just the comments.... "

I must admit to only reading parts of the story but I mostly read the comments.

As for the baby's adoption by a British family, here's a thought. If the baby was born on British soil, isn't she automatically British? I'm not sure how the system works these days but my thoughts are that the baby was adopted by a British family in order to avoid any future problems vis-a-vis nationality issues.

The truth is that I don't know who is right and who is wrong in this case but I'm certainly not going to jump on the bandwagon waving a banner demanding the the "Service" in question be taken outside and shot, that the government should be disbanded and that it would all be a lot better if only Diana was still alive.

[tommy.irene]

The child is not British.. she is Italian the same as the mother.. we have the same here in Spain. Your starting to lose the plot ..go back to bed...................and that it would all be a lot better if only Diana was still alive. ????

[tommy.irene]

Could you tell me in which newspaper report is said this...... Do we know that these are the same family members that are already looking after her other two kids which were taken from her by an Italian court? It seems to me that an Italian court, with access to medical records and the like, would be in a good position to decide if she was capable of looking after her other 2 kids. They obviously decided that she wasn't......... Stevie.. When did the court in italy take the 2 children of her..

[tommy.irene]

 
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[blackburn_stevie]

Tommy asked ......  "Could you tell me in which newspaper report is said this......" 

There wasn't a newspaper report that said ...... Do we know that these are the same family members that are already looking after her other two kids which were taken from her by an Italian court?

That was my question to you. The bit about the Italian court having her other 2 kids taken into care was a fact taken from one of the links about the case where it said that the judges heard that she could not always be trusted to take her medication.

I don't KNOW the answers. I just don't take everything at face value.

[bankhaunter]

The judge's message to the child is apparently not that remarkable.

It is the practice for some judges to explain their decision for the child to see in later years should they wish to see the court papers.

[tommy.irene]

The point is that this case is been talked about around the world.. I cant see why the child cant be returned to Italy.. She has family there..

[tommy.irene]

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@blackburn_stevie wrote:

Tommy asked ......  "Could you tell me in which newspaper report is said this......" 

There wasn't a newspaper report that said ...... Do we know that these are the same family members that are already looking after her other two kids which were taken from her by an Italian court?

That was my question to you. The bit about the Italian court having her other 2 kids taken into care was a fact taken from one of the links about the case where it said that the judges heard that she could not always be trusted to take her medication.

I don't KNOW the answers. I just don't take everything at face value.

---

Nowere can i find your statement ..The bit about the Italian court having her other 2 kids taken into care was a fact taken from one of the links about the case where it said that the judges heard that she could not always be trusted to take her medication.................................the kids are living with the womans family, the welfare in Italy never had them..

[blackburn_stevie]

her other two kids which were taken from her by an Italian court?

I must apologise for saying that the message above was taken from a newspaper report. It wasn't. It was taken from the Comments section on the page linked to in the OP. The comment is from an Italian person who seems to know a bit more about the case, I knew that I had seen it somewhere.

[tommy.irene]

Stevie what do you see here

[ronnybabes]

   You is incisive Tommy... 

[blackburn_stevie]

Mmmmm, Let me see.

I see an injured guy sat down on the floor. I don't know if he is "Friendly" or an insurgent but either way, his clothing is different to that worn by most of our lot (plain dull green) but, on the other hand, he doesn't have a beard. As for the guy on the right, I would be more or less forced to say that he was offering the middle guy dribbles of water because he was de-hydrated.

As for this comment from earlier .... "and that it would all be a lot better if only Diana was still alive. ????"

That was meant to be part of the rallying cry of Daily Mail readers from a good few years ago