Care homes/security cameras.

[margaret*e]

Invasion of privacy or a neccesity in exposing neglect and cruelty?.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31424424

"Decisions about using surveillance are extremely difficult - there is always a balance to be struck between protecting people and respecting their right to privacy - but this information will help families to the make the right choice for them."

But Nadra Ahmed, of the National Care Association, which represents providers, said it was "disappointing" that the guidance had been produced.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

If you're saying they were momentary "lapses", those people would still have done it and if there were overt cameras would probably have either made excuses or tried to "cover it up", the cameras wouldn't have stopped them.

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In some cases probably not but neither would covert cameras.

[cee-dee]

No, covert cameras wouldn't stop them but they will enable them to be caught out.

[margaret*e]

The trouble with doing it properly, complaining through official channels, is the time it takes, and the abuse could be going on all the time.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

No, covert cameras wouldn't stop them but they will enable them to be caught out.

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Well as the examples of abuse that have come to light from covert cameras show they demonstrably didn't stop the abuse.

With overt cameras it is likely that at least some of that abuse would not have occurred because workers would know their actions were being recorded and where abuse did occur there would be the same evidence available as with covert cameras - a win win situation.

[joamur_gosof]

First port of call should be how do people who behave like that get the jobs....so if the background checks fail then and one or two still slip through then the management of the care home needs an overhaul . Covert cameras may be replaced by voice recorders on all staff so what they say and hear is always recorded...no ones privicy is affected. 

Next what about the carers that do the home visits ...are there any people in the system being abusive to elderly there ? again microphones.

[cee-dee]

The reason the covert cameras were installed was not to stop any abuse, how could they? They were covert, the abusers didn't know they were there. The reason they were installed was because abuse/neglect was suspected and like Margaret says, going through "official channels" takes time.

The cameras were installed to check whether any abuse/neglect was taking place and if it was found to be so, to prove who was doing what.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

The reason the covert cameras were installed was not to stop any abuse, how could they? They were covert, the abusers didn't know they were there. The reason they were installed was because abuse/neglect was suspected and like Margaret says, going through "official channels" takes time.

The cameras were installed to check whether any abuse/neglect was taking place and if it was found to be so, to prove who was doing what.

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I accept that but if overt cameras had been installed there would have been no need for covert ones.

How many covert cameras are installed in the rooms of those in care, without the individual's consent and without the knowledge of employees.

It's all very well saying, "ahh but look at the abuse they have substantiated", what of all the others where the rights of both residents and staff have been breached.

As asked previously, would you approve of covert cameras in the bedrooms of a care home for children/adolescents without the knowledge or consent of the children? 

[cee-dee]

People wouldn't think about installing cameras unless they had suspicions of neglect or abuse.

There'd also be no point in installing covert cameras if you went around saying "Oh, by the way, covert cameras have been installed to keep an eye on what you're up to."

I can see where you're headed, installing covert cameras for voyeristic purposes don't come in to the discussion about neglect/abuse of the elderly.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

People wouldn't think about installing cameras unless they had suspicions of neglect or abuse.

There'd also be no point in installing covert cameras if you went around saying "Oh, by the way, covert cameras have been installed to keep an eye on what you're up to."

I can see where you're headed, installing covert cameras for voyeristic purposes don't come in to the discussion about neglect/abuse of the elderly.

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It's not just the elderly that are abused in care homes - and no I wasn't thinking about cameras for voyeuristic purposes but more along the lines of consent.  Not all the elderly in care homes are mentally deficient.

Why do you say there would be no point in advertising the fact that there were covert cameras installed - surely that would be a good deterrent whether or not they actually existed?

As I have said previously many care workers are actually in favour of the permanent installation of overt CCTV - these serve three purposes, detection of abuse, protection of staff from false allegations and finally and probably most importantly as a deterrent against wrong doing.

[cee-dee]

If there's "nothing going on", there's no need for any cameras.

Where speed cameras are fixed, those who know they're there slow down then speed up when they're away from the camera. When a covert camera van parks up, they catch loadsa speeders. Simple innit?

[*.*..lola..*.*]

First port of call should be how do people who behave like that get the jobs....so if the background checks fail then and one or two still slip through then the management of the care home needs an overhaul .

Good question

Working in the caring profession used to be a vocation or a kind of calling for people who genuinely wanted to nurse others and take care of them (I know for a fact that it's not something that I would be suited to doing for a living).

Nowadays though, because of a dearth of full time jobs for unskilled workers, people who wouldn't normally consider spending their days cleaning up after the elderly and incontinent, are finding themselves with no other choice than to take jobs in care homes purely for the money.

Also as people in general are living a lot longer now, more carers are needed to look after them.

Agencies and care homes literally cannot recruit enough staff to fill all the vacancies so I guess they are being forced to employ people who they possibly know are less than suitable for the job.

It's shameful that cameras (covert or otherwise) seem to be the only way to keep these people safe. I'm in full agreement of using them.

[malacandran]

Would cameras be installed in toilet cubicles?

[joe_bloggs*]

Interesting article about the vetting system:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/elder/10980976/Collapse-in-number-of-people-barred-from-worki...

[joamur_gosof]

Good read Joe .Just checking up before I comment.  and...

ehem ...cough.. 'microphones' 🙂

[*.*..lola..*.*]

I remember when The Protection of Freedoms Act was first brought in, Joe and at the time I did think it was ridiculously strict especially with regards to children.

Wasn't there some rule about no one being allowed to mind someone else's kids unless they had been CRB checked or something?

I'm glad they have relaxed it, but it sounds as if they've relaxed it way too much now.

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

If there's "nothing going on", there's no need for any cameras.

Where speed cameras are fixed, those who know they're there slow down then speed up when they're away from the camera. When a covert camera van parks up, they catch loadsa speeders. Simple innit?

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So you accept that where people know that a camera is recording them then they are less likely to offend and where they do they get caught - where the camera is hidden they ONLY catch offenders and don't deter at all.

As the space in a care home is relatively small it would be simple to provide comprehensive coverage.

Better to deter - simples.

[cee-dee]

To cover every angle, in every place that every resident could possibly get in to, you'd need an awful lot of cameras, that's impractical.

[joamur_gosof]

I give up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....slam

[upthecreekyetagain]

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@cee-dee wrote:

To cover every angle, in every place that every resident could possibly get in to, you'd need an awful lot of cameras, that's impractical.

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I don't think you can have been in many care homes.

[cee-dee]

You're not wrong there.