Can someone explain the difference between Crimea and Scotland?

[sir_arthur_strebe-grebling]

The people of Crimea vote to leave Ukraine without anyone else having a say, and the rest of the world condemns the action and imposes sanctions.

The people of Scotland are given a vote to leave the United Kingdom without anyone else having a say ...

[joe_bloggs*]

Dunno about the difference,but i can see the similarities,both don't want to be ruled by right wing nutters

[millielilac]

I live 20 minutes outside of Scotland ....used to actually live in Scotland ....

Only the Scottish people are allowed to vote if they wish to leave the UK ( including 16 year old children ). The rest of the UK are not allowed an opinion although it will affect the whole of the UK. Just think what would happen if all those Scottish MPs are no longer at Westminster...no the wonder all 3 politcal parties are united in wishing Scotland to remain part of the UK.....although 1 party does stand to be very advantaged should Scotland become independent ....

Have actually been shopping in Scotland today , just across the border ....maybe in the very near future I may need to take my passport and some foreign money ...who knows?

My own personal opinion is neither here nor there .........

[papko]

The ide is based on self determination , a people should be allowed to govern itself .

 This is a a UN decree .

 So if the Tibetans so wished they could have a referendum and choose to break away from China , but China won let  them , and if they all vote din the elections there , to break away , they would still be out voted , by the hundreds of millions of Chinese .

 To remdey this situation of a smaller country never getting its views heard , they have laws of Slef - detemrination .

 In Scotland the SNP gained a majority in the Scottish parliament , and they had the referendum , in their manifesto , so they set about proposing it , the UK Govt , keen to promote democracy , agreed to this , and they called it , the Edinburgh Agreement .

 To respect the democratic result of the vote , and have clear laws (as Govern Uk Elections ) governing the referendum .

the Crimea is no doubt mostly Russian anyway , and indeed has a chequered history through the centuries .

So when threatened by the Govt in Kiev , Putin sent in troops , and got them to vote on whether they wanted to stay in Ukraine or , join Russia .

 I suppose its a s good a referendum as any , its just not recognised by the USA and her allies , though they did recognise the current govt in Ukraine very quickly , even though they had no vote there .

[spawnjohnuk]

I agree with papko on why are US backing a non voted gov but refusing to ackknowledge a voted one...shouldnt the US and allies (in a democracy) gone with the russians to hold a Ukraine vote on a new gov after the last one was correctly imo chased off.

Its the US and others that kept this raging (probably to divert attention from their activity in Syria) again ,just my opinion.

and lol at joe ,top 🙂

[al**bear]

Sir A

More to the Point, the US are actively acting against a minority in the Ukraine's in their cry for Independence

But for over 20years, the US has meddled and forced the wishes of a Minority in Northern Ireland on the majority and even forced the British Government to support them, of course Tony BLiar championed the US stance to gain Kudos with the US East Coast Political elite.

[bankhaunter]

Was there a cry for independence or was it engineered just by a minority helped by Russia?

It would seem that since the breakup of the Soviet Union, successive governments in the Ukraine have made a pig's ear of dealing with something which has been there from the start and bound to come to a head sooner or later.

This is interesting.

http://www.soviethistory.org/index.php?page=subject&SubjectID=1954crimea&Year=1954

[lhasa.two]

---

@sir_arthur_strebe-grebling wrote:

The people of Crimea vote to leave Ukraine without anyone else having a say, and the rest of the world condemns the action and imposes sanctions.

The people of Scotland are given a vote to leave the United Kingdom without anyone else having a say ...

---

I'm sure you can see the difference!

There's a very big difference between a referendum to create autonomy between two countries who have previously coexisted as "one" than a third country intervening and taking over one of the two countries... not sure I would want to be governed by the French!!!

On the one hand Putin doesn't acknowledge the newly formed Ukraine government but never the less he puts Russian/pro Russian troops on the ground to secure the Crimea which is illegal, he blocks the port so that Ukraine ships cannot enter or leave along with blocking the use of the airport. Within days the local Crimea autonomous "government" are able to mount an illegal referendum where 95% of the people vote to become part of Russia again. The voting figures are no doubt rigged ( no International observers present) as Ukrainians and tartars, who make up about 35% of the population, were afraid to vote in fear of Russian reprisals. 

Crimea is part of Ukraine and therefore part of the treaty singed in 1954 by Ukraine Russia, USA and UK and it is the Ukraine government who should have been asked for a referendum by Crimea, not Russia. 

Putin has behaved like a dictator and an invader.

The Scottish parliament approached Westminster and ASKED to have a referendum. Westminster agreed they could, that's democracy and over a period of 18 months or so, not less than 2 weeks as in Ukraine. I imagine other Scots who don't live in Scotland won't have a vote because they aren't resident there. You can't vote for anything unless you are a resident. Same with Ukraine, so same with Scotland.

[joe_bloggs*]

There were international observers present who stated the voting was proffesionally done with minimal police presence,not done at gunpoint as some reports have said,There Was a report on youtube of the international observers giving their final report on the vote,but somehow it has been removed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lFPUBHJql8

[lhasa.two]

Ah right, I had read earlier - can't remember where at the mo -that they were not allowed to attend so it's good that they did. 

Yes, the report is still removed...

[papko]

On the one hand Putin doesn't acknowledge the newly formed Ukraine government but never the less he puts Russian/pro Russian troops on the ground to secure the Crimea which is illegal, he blocks the port so that Ukraine ships cannot enter or leave along with blocking the use of the airport. Within days the local Crimea autonomous "government" are able to mount an illegal referendum where 95% of the people vote to become part of Russia again. The voting figures are no doubt rigged ( no International observers present) as Ukrainians and tartars, who make up about 35% of the population, were afraid to vote in fear of Russian reprisals. 

Crimea was gifted to Ukraine (at that time an administrative region of the Soviet Union ) by the Soviet leader Kruschew , 

In 1991 , when the Soviet union collapsed , many  subject regions , split away , the Soviet union was powerless , and could not function itself , many Russians beleive the dismantling was done under duress , as they were too weak to stop it .

 All the regions that left , have large ethnic Russian populations

The Demonstrators in Kiev , ousted the Govt (democratically elwcted ) and put themselves in charge , (with no democratic mandate , they were recognised in an hour by the USA and the UK ,  

Russia beleives that the CIA were funding the dissent in Kiev , by paying the demonstrators , and being so quick to recognise a Govvt , whose first act was to ban the Russian language .

 Putin feared that the USA's attempts to subvert the country , were retalaition for his standing up to them , over Syria , they did not get to bomb Damascus , and the chemical weapons have bene ordelry dismantled , as opposed to another decade long occupation , a'la Iraq

 So he upped the stakes , and secured his Naval Base in the Black Sea (leased to Russia till 2014 )

Russia fears that she is being surronded by the country who spends 10 times more on defence per year , than any other country in the world , the country who regulalry invades and occupies another country , to secure its own oil supplies

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

Crimea is part of Ukraine and therefore part of the treaty singed in 1954 by Ukraine Russia, USA and UK and it is the Ukraine government who should have been asked for a referendum by Crimea, not Russia. 

Putin has behaved like a dictator and an invader.

 Signed in 1994 , saw a population of ethnic Russians cut off from Russia , 

Western Ukraine itself , has bene part of Poland and Austria , and for the last 300 years part of Russia .

The Americans have been goading the Russians , and now the Russians have come out with decisive action , the Americans realise , sending troops to Ukraine , wont be like Kuwait .

 Obama send Drones into Pakistan every night , and has hundred sof thousands of troop in Iraq and Afghan , i dont think he is the dove of peace , just adept at marketing 

[joe_bloggs*]

That's a very substantial list Papko,it should be viewed alongside "Confessions of an economic hitman" which will open anyones eyes as to US intentions and actions

[spawnjohnuk]

Is the bottom line the US and uk amongst others have just lost site of everything but greed ? I think Putins stance to support russians wherever they live is sorely lacking in the (civilized west) and so long as it just shows the west up for how they have been behaving over the last 30 yrs and not cause a mega war ,then go for it Putin ,then come here and help are minority poor 🙂

[lhasa.two]

The Demonstrators in Kiev , ousted the Govt (democratically elwcted ) and put themselves in charge , (with no democratic mandate , they were recognised in an hour by the USA and the UK ,  

Russia beleives that the CIA were funding the dissent in Kiev , by paying the demonstrators , and being so quick to recognise a Govvt , whose first act was to ban the Russian language .

 Putin feared that the USA's attempts to subvert the country , were retalaition for his standing up to them , over Syria , they did not get to bomb Damascus , and the chemical weapons have bene ordelry dismantled , as opposed to another decade long occupation , a'la Iraq

 So he upped the stakes , and secured his Naval Base in the Black Sea (leased to Russia till 2014 )

 I agree with what you say above papko as I don't believe for a moment the "new" government in Kiev is much better than the last one (probably they haven't had time to squirrel away billions yet), especially when they decided to ban the Russian language which fortunately was knocked on the head very quickly by both the US and the EU.   

I think Putin is also very concerned about having Nato troops on the border of Russia and Ukraine. 

There's no getting away from the fact that he has behaved illegally though. He said two weeks ago he did not want to annex Crimea from Ukraine, two weeks later he's signed an agreement to do just that... The Russians aren't the best chess players in the world for nothing...

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't understand why the EU want  such a corrupt run country as the Ukraine as a member unless it's to ensure the gas supplies alone. Germany is very dependent on the Russian/Ukraine pipelines so that's probably why they've been relatively quiet. I notice it's the countries who don't depend on gas supplies that have been the most vocal.

I am very disappointed in President Obama as his first reactions both to Syria and now Ukraine have been immediately to "punish" as opposed to negotiate. He never got off to a good start with Putin and has pulled out of meetings with him when applying diplomatic skills might have narrowed the gap a bit. It's certainly been a test for Kerry. These people never seem to learn from history.  People are fed up with wars. 

[joe_bloggs*]

It wouldn't surprise me if a "false flag" operation was launched by elements of the Ukranian militia to put the blame onto the Russians therby inflaming the situation as happened during the Ukranian "uprising" whan a sniper was apparenty randomly killing people from both sides (police & demonstrators) but there have been reports of this sniper actually belonging to the new government.The sniper shootings were headline news worldwide,strangely been silent about them since

[lhasa.two]

Probably difficult to say who it was, as too many vested interests at work during that time and we'll probably never know.

Bottom line 80 people dead...

Speaking of things vanishing, in the early days there was a report on the Live reporting by the BBC that the UK has a credit balance with a Russian bank of £1billion. I saw it on the day but never again. ..

[papko]

I Am not really arguing or disagreeing with you LHASA 

 I agree the situation is very complex , and very murky , Putin is no Angel , nor Obama a Devil .

 Speaking to my Russian family about this ( i wa smarried to a Russian women , 20 years ago , and we have a son , who has been brought up in Russia , though has a British passport ) 

They say Russians are anti- Amercan by nature , and they applaud Putin for "righting the worngs " , their is a sense , that the Soviet Union was unfairly treated , and particualrly acute is the relationship with Ukraine , where for 300 years there was one country .

 indeed going further back , the Russian people (the Russ " came from Kiew 1000 years ago , and th enations histories have been intertwined .

 Indeed Ukraine must be the most popular holiday destination for Russians . 

 I also see the case that if Russia perceives the west "weak " , thne they may be tempted to try their hand further ?

[bankhaunter]

We have to remember that the people of countries like Russia that have been invaded on more than one occasion, especially where it is in living memory, are likely to have a somewhat different outlook and way of thinking than those of countries that haven't suffered a simlar fate.

There is good reason for such countries to want buffer states between them and any possible enemy.

Just look at Afghanistan where Russia and Britain struggled to exert influence purely because of it's position bordering India, the 'Great Game' and all that.

Plus the history of Europe is littered with disputes where one state has a significant number of ethnic people in one area with the culture of a neighbouring state.

[spawnjohnuk]

Interesting thought papko on will they ''try their hand further'' and move onto the Ukraine as a whole.

Horrible history springs to mind.

[ecclesvinaigrette]

Is this a land grab or just the majority getting their way?
Wonder what would happen if the residents of Golders Green voted to join Israel or those in Bradford chose to be part of Bangladesh, would this be the right move ?