Cancelling an order due to Tier 4 restrictions - and bad vibes?

[rmykelley]

Had an item sell last week (older iMac). Buyer used Buy it Now. They have paid, but have been slow to respond to messages. It was collection-only and they asked if they could collect on Monday. Since then, Tier 4 has come into effect where we both live.

Before this happened I tried to arrange a video call so they could see the computer is working ok before they collect. Today I’ve had a message along the lines of “yes send a video but we are returning it if it doesn’t work”. And they are asking questions they should have asked before committing to buy. I’ve just got a bad feeling about it. And we know eBay always sides with the buyer!

This is a 9 year old computer. It has a few minor issues that I’ve described in the listing. But it’s working fine. Nothing to hide.

Under Tier 4 restrictions I don’t think I should be meeting up with them and I definitely don’t want to deal with a return right now. It’s hardly essential business. So I have decided to cancel the order and give them a refund.

Am I likely to get a defect on my seller profile for this? Tier 4 didn’t appear in the list of reasons for cancelling (!) but interested to hear of people have ever cancelled to due to bad vibes about a sale?

[ruby*tuesday]

EBay runs an automated system so no there is no get out of jail free Card for Sellers who Cancel a Sale for any reason other than "Buyer Requested Cancellation." You will be charged the EBay Final Value Fee.and will give yourself a Damaging Defect if you Cancel the Sale. 

Message your Buyer and explain that you cannot go through with the Sale because of Tier 4 ask them to send you a Cancellation Request from More Actions to the right of the Item in their Purchase History. You can then safely Cancel using "Buyer Requested Cancellation." Your Seller Fees would then be Credited back to your Seller Account with No Damaging Defect.

Cash on Collection is a much safer option when Listing a Collection Item. The Buyer in normal circumstances can inspect the Item and walk away if the Item is not what they require. You can then safely Cancel.

[rmykelley]

I jumped the gun as this was keeping me awake last night... I have cancelled. No reply yet from buyer. I wasn’t aware of the best practices for Collection items, thank you. If I’m collecting I always ask if the seller wants cash. More to save them PayPal fees but I guess it protects me if the item isn’t as described!

[jillybaby66]

foryoufromfiley:

The the most relevant case law I could find ( at short notice ) was a case involving Thomas v Smythe -

"Thomas argued that there were only contracts between eBay and the buyer and eBay andt he seller
The court found that eBay provided a framework for the transaction in which Thomas and Smythe were willing participants."
Conclusion:
"A Binding Contract was formed between Thomas and Smythe which WAS ENFORCEABLE BY THE COURTS"

So, in theory, yes, either could use the Small Claims Court. In practice, as mykelley says, it would be a right hassle....🤯😖

The contract that does exist between eBay and the Seller is the one whereby the Seller ( and Buyer ) agree to abide by eBay policy, rules and regs in order to register and use the platform. THAT'S where the sanctions, defects and fees come in.
This is why I feared the best way was to get the Buyer to cancel and where experienced Members as best placed to advise. As Ruby*Tuesday confirms: you will get a defect etc and it's automatic 😔 I just hoped CS maybe could override or waiver the penalties in these exceptional circs.

I'm so sorry you've been stressed, mykelley. A less conscientious Seller who wasn't trying to follow the rules AND the law
I got myself in a simlar state recently which is why I sought out help from the Community ( who were Brilliant ! ) and why I want to try and help others.

[rusticrye]

I would cancel the Ebay transaction, using 'problem with address', as that is more or less true under these circumstances. That will auto-refund the buyer, and credit the selling fee back to your Ebay account. You'll be stuck with the PayPal payment processing fee, though, as PayPal no longer refund any part of it.

PayPal is not safe for sellers of collection items, by the way (no proof of posting receipt in the event of an Unauthorised Account Use claim, the only thing a payment processor will accept for such a claim). You should accept only cash or bank transfer, once the buyer has fully examined the item and is happy with it. 

Unfortunately, it's not possible to prevent a buyer from paying with PayPal, and as we can no longer recoup any of the PayPal fee if cancelling to avoid the risks, it's not worth listing collection items on Ebay in my view.  I list mine on Gumtree, Ebay's sister site, which is free and where I have full control over how I'm paid. And I can leave the ad running till someone has actually turned up, paid, and taken the item away.  (Not that I'm listing items for collection at this time, as I think it's a thoroughly bad idea during a pandemic, regardless of which tier system is currently in place.)

@rmykelley 

[jillybaby66]

I just a Buyer and think an experienced Seller would be best placed to give you advice on defects and "bad vibes" ( though my gut is saying: cancel if you can, the buyer sounds like trouble ! )

I'm sure one of Community Members on here will advise you on that side of it

I did however study law for six years ( and volunteered for the CAB many moons ago ) so...

I can tell you that, if to fulfill a contract in UK law one would have to commit an illegal act then it is considered void and the party would not be in breech. 

"Illegal contracts are those that require either party to engage in an illegal activity to fulfill the contract. This would not be considered a legal contract by the court and could not be enforced. Thus, illegal contracts are void and neither party will be entitled to relief if the other party breaks the contract."

Under Tier Four you are only allowed to meet someone in a public place for very specific reasons and this isn't one of them ( see .gov.uk )

I know that eBay has it's own policy and rules of conduct, that give additional rights and protection for the Buyer but I can't see how they could be used to supercede Contact Law ?

I think contacting Customer Services might be the only way to be sure. It's such a new situation and may need advice on a case-by-case basis ?

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

[jillybaby66]

Found this which was the example often quoted back in the day when I studied Contract Law ( yes it mentions the Crimean War but is still considered a president and, no, I'm not QUITE that old 😂 )

D FRUSTRATION
18. Under the doctrine of frustration, a contract may be discharged if, after its
formation, an unforeseen event occurs which makes performance of the
contract impossible, illegal or essentially different from what was
contemplated. A good example is Avery v Bowden18, in which a ship was
supposed to pick up some cargo at Odessa. With the outbreak of the Crimean
War, the government made it illegal to load cargo at an enemy port, so the
ship could not perform its contract without breaking the law. The contract was
therefore frustrated. Frustration will not occur where the frustrating event
was caused by the fault of one party. Equally, frustration will not occur where
the parties made express provision for the event in their contract (such as in
a force majeure clause). The doctrine cannot be invoked lightly, and cannot
allow a party to escape from a bad bargain.

Replace Crimean War with pandemic outbreak and port in Odessa with a living room in London and it's not THAT dissimilar.

Yes, it's starting to look like a "bad bargain" ( or a bad buyer 😂 ) but it ISN'T your reason for breaking the contract. ( this would happen only if say, you got a better offer and tried abuse the law to get out of it )

Frustration just means the contract is made impossible and is void.

Yes, I delivery CAN be made in Tier 4 but only as part of a person's normal JOB ie a courier and even then, they couldn't come in nor the recipient nspect the goods then hand them back. This isn't your job and you couldn't sell non-essential items from your home or shop anyway.

So, unless eBay required you to break the law then it can't expect you to fulfill the contract ( as agreed i.e. collection not postal delivery ) nor SHOULD they punish you for it.

Practically speaking, it may not be that simple as the eBay are probably running to catch up with rapidly changing events like everyone and the system probably would be automatic and require a customer service adviser to remove any resulting defects but the law IS on your side.

Maybe the way to go is to message the Buyer and say you've been advised you would be breaking the law and as such the sale is null and void. They MAY just accept it and agree to cancel themselves ? 🤞 Which I Think would leave you in the clear defect-wise ?

Hopefully, eBay may issue a policy statement to Sellers ( they have adapted so far by extending delivery windows etc.

Other Sellers may have already made enquires, you can't be the only one in Teir 4, so hopefully may respond too 🤞

[rmykelley]

That was helpful, thanks! Brain has been in overdrive most of the weekend and this sale was keeping me up last night. I went ahead and cancelled the order because I just needed to take action on it. I might now be at a loss in terms of seller fees and reputation but
- I’m not pinning hopes on eBay to catch up and add “Tier 4” to cancellation reasons, so will accept my fate!
- I choose have some hope the buyer will be reasonable and not kick off. They haven’t responded yet. I kept the message factual, but stressed that Tier 4 was the main reasoning didn’t want to proceed, especially as they had mentioned a possible return.

[tsmgmd]

Interesting response from someone legally trained.

Does that mean that a eBay member could sue every non paying bidder as they have broken the contract.

[rmykelley]

It would be a hassle to pursue but a great deterrent for time wasters! Had a few this year.

[john1297576]

Sounds most impractical,it is not possible to get blood out of a stone and most non payers come into that category. If it was possible to sue, what would be the point, it would just cost the seller more when the inevitable "Not As Described " case was opened.
I think I have had more non payers this year than in the previous 17 years, but unpaid strikes and Blocked Bidders List ensures I never see them again.

[jillybaby66]

I don't know how you Seller's do it ! I'd been thinking of Selling for awhile ( when normality returns ) but reading some horror stories on here and I'm running scared 😬😂 You have to really have your wits about you !

I wonder if there's been more new buyers attracted to eBay because they are unwilling or unable to buy on the High Street but having no idea what is acceptable on eBay ?
Or, financial difficulties ( though if you can't afford, don't bid , surely ?! )

I've had lot more item not received or cancellations ( and no comms ). I wonder if it's for the same reason ? ( Though some were clearly not happy with the final auction price as they immediately relisted ) That's why I was interested to learn that a buyer who cancels will almost always get penalized ?

I've been adding a note to every purchase saying : please let me know if you can't post
straight away or do so safely etc as I don't want anyone taking undue risks with their health, breaking isolation or the law ! MOST sellers have been lovely and have said, either they were fine or, yes, they'd need a few days so could post when it was quieter or when someone could go for them if elderly or vulnerable.
eBay have a least altered their policy to allow for extra postage time in these instances and are warning of it on the Help pages. I just hoped maybe they may be helping sellers by waiving some fees and penalties when items can't be sent ?
I'm just a **bleep**-eyed optimist, I guess 😂