Ebay buyer protection fee? Genius move or own goal?

[darktints]

I've got a lot to unpack about ebays recent performance so please scroll on if long stories bore you.

So I've seen a couple of threads on here about the new buyer protection fees but other than a couple of tiffs between the "die hards" and the "have nots", no one seems to be making much about ebay's strategy in all of this.

Although ebay has a good market share, increased competition from freebie platforms such at Facebook MP, Vinted and other apps clearly had them spooked and coupled by the drop in active users they have expeienced since their peak in 2018, has led to ebay making some radical changes.

So back in October 24, ebay removed selling fees for private sellers which personally I thought was a genius move. Take a short term hit in cash flow to rejuvinate the active user base thus bringing more people back to the platform. After all, the more active users you have, the more opportunity you have to sell them stuff, right?

Now they have just announced the new buyer protection fee system, which I do understand why its here. Afterall, supporting customers who used your service for free is a hard pill to swallow, especially for the finance department who care little about customer base and repeat sales and are more focussed on "did we cover our bills this month"?

Where I come stuck with this new direction is that if you are trying to attract more active users to your platform, adding a surcharge to any purchases they make not from a business account will surely keep these kinds of users on the freebie platforms, thus completely undoing all of ebays good work back in October.

Like it or not, the second hand goods market is highly price motivated and only works when costs are minimal. I believe in the long run, this "robbing Peter to pay Paul" approach will not lead to increased user activity and ebay will become bogged down in the same (albeit very slow) death loop of hemeraging active users.

This obviously has no effect on businesses who sell on ebay (well not in the short or medium term at least) which is where ebay no doubt makes the majority of its money. But buyers who are minded to haggle over a £1 difference on a £3 item will not want to be paying 75p + 4% on top of second hand goods.

With platforms like Amazon offering a more streamlined shopping experience for buyers of new goods, and Facebook and others offering essentially a free shopping platform for used goods, ebay seems to be working its way into an uncomfortable middle ground being the jack of all trades and master of none.

If you got this far, thanks for your time. This is not a rant or a leaving announcment, just my observations.

[moldosgifts]

That is your opinion and i welcome it despite all the sarcastic statements within,

A private seller is not intending to make a profit a business has to make a profit ,

So again 99p auction with all the changes is completely doable as long as it a cheap item.

I am not having a laugh or being ridiculous the site must change or die, if its not what it used to be where sellers could basically get away with anything I'm thinking back in 99 when i had my first dealing with ebay.

All the changes are for private accounts only not for business accounts so private accounts are not to make a profit but you can cover your packing so on,

So please reply to the context of the post.

[kath3735_wxmjn]

i have lots of stuff that i would normally be listing over the coming months but i am putting as many as i can be bothered to on now (five at a time, that is all the patience i have for it) and it would still not be over the 300 limit.   Then when SD does arrive it will all come off.  Based on the usual  way it works on e by for me, i will probably have about 1 or at most 2 sessions of selling a few items.  I appear to sell roughly 4 items over a few days and then nothing for a couple of weeks and that happens far too often for it to be coincidence.

[kath3735_wxmjn]

I find the 300 enough of a limit, until now i have stuck to about 80 but have just hit 100 as pushing on as much as i can be bothered to before the *bleep* hits the fan and i leave.   Even if i had the patience to put all my waiting stuff on it would not be 300, not even 200.

[moldosgifts]

i sell some patches that if ebay give me a label i can easily sell for 99p if i had no fees to pay.

But i don't have free listing or given a postage label so they are Over £3.

This is my point you don't have to make a profit just convert it into cash so it is worth what someone is willing to pay. So again as when the changes come in fully 99p is the cheapest certain items can be listed for at auction. Because you don't have top make a profit because your a private seller, and if your selling a house for 99p i'm buying

[dch2112011]

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@vjbuystuff wrote:
HMRC only care about the numbers, the type of items being sold is largely
irrelevant to them.

 That statement is not entirely correct - HMRC are most definately interested in the type of items sold  ie exempt from tax, personal unwanted items, items made for resale, items purchased for resale, items being sold that do not belong to the seller, services being sold, 

If they did not care about the type of item they would simply apply a tiered tax to everyone and everything  without exception - there would then only be one type of tax - no allowances, no duties no exemptions - no item specific taxes - it would be simpler but moaning about ebay would pale into insignificance as a result

[magpiecorner1]

This person is a sole trader.  He could also have set up a company.  

He has followed HMRC guidelines, he has sold more than the cut off of £1700 and 30 items.  He can sell the items for more than he paid for them.  

HMRC guidelines state he MAY be trading.   The badges of trade are guidelines, subject to testing via the law courts.  And only in retrospect.

He has done nothing wrong.  And he has filled in his self assessment in accordance with HMRC guidelines and the law.

HMRC could dispute though.  Trouble for HMRC though is that they have to abide by their own precedents and there own guidelines.  Those guidelines, supported by the House of Lords, were referred to in my earlier post.

There is a very wide gorge between tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal, and tax evasion, which is illegal.  The new legislation regarding reporting of sales of more than £1700 on online platforms will inevitably cause people to register for self employment and put their sales on their self assessment.   It might just have unintended consequences, in part due to HMRC BIM 36630.

[phillsvinyl]

I wonder if i went to the supermarket, brought some beans for say 39p then had to pay 4% + 75p and they had to wait to be paid, so i could walk out of the shop with the can of beans - go home eat them - did not like them and sent a half eaten tin back to them and demanding my money back - wonder if they would do that...........................................................................................................

[dch2112011]

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@phillsvinyl wrote:

I wonder if i went to the supermarket, brought some beans for say 39p then had to pay 4% + 75p and they had to wait to be paid, so i could walk out of the shop with the can of beans - go home eat them - did not like them and sent a half eaten tin back to them and demanding my money back - wonder if they would do that...........................................................................................................

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Yep they certainly would and do that daily

On ebay the 4% and 75p will be incorporated into the price advertised for the item - so the buyer as in a supermarket sees the price and can choose to buy or not - the fees are not added on at checkout - the price you see is the price you pay 

You can pay at checkout in a supermarket by credit card - the supermarket will not have your funds at this point - mereley that the credit card company have approved the value of the sale and placed it as pending on the customer's credit card - NO money at this stage hs been paid to the supermarket - they have to wait for the payment to be processed and cleared to the supermarket bank account.

The customer as soon as the payment is approved but well before the supermarket receives the payment is free to walk out of the supermarket - go home open the can eat half the contents and return with the open can half full and the supermarket will refund the customer the full cost of the can of beans either as a reversal to the credit card or in cash depending on store policy. 

As with ebay if you told the supermarket the beans did not taste right or the can was half empty when you opened it there would be no dispute but as with ebay if you simply said you changed your mind in this circumstance you would not be refunded  

This could all take place before the supermarket received the customers money in their bank !

Why would you think this is not a daily occurance for supermarkets and it could only happen on ebay ?  

[akemp1]

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@dch2112011 wrote:
You can pay at checkout in a supermarket by credit card - the supermarket will not have your funds at this point - mereley that the credit card company have approved the value of the sale and placed it as pending on the customer's credit card - NO money at this stage hs been paid to the supermarket - they have to wait for the payment to be processed and cleared to the supermarket bank account.

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Most supermarkets will have secured payment terms such that they don't have to pay their suppliers until months after the goods were supplied to them anyway so they are still up on a cashflow basis for having to wait a few days foe a customer's card payment to clear.

[dch2112011]

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@akemp1 wrote:

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Most supermarkets will have secured payment terms such that they don't have to pay their suppliers until months after the goods were supplied to them anyway so they are still up on a cashflow basis for having to wait a few days foe a customer's card payment to clear.

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Yes they will have credit terms with their suppliers BUT private sellers selling unwanted, unloved, used items have no payments whatsoever to make Now or in the future !  

The goods have been paid for months if not years before the seller discarded the item having used it to the extent they wanted before deciding to pass it on to somebody else for a remuneration -  they have not bought it to resell, they have no costs - postage, item, wages or any overhead  - the proceeds received by the seller are 100% theirs - it is a bonus for an item which is no longer of any use to the seller - paid recycling.

you are protesting as though you are a businesss with costs and overheads - if so what you write does not apply to you whatsoever !

[akemp1]

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@dch2112011 wrote:

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you are protesting as though you are a businesss with costs and overheads - if so what you write does not apply to you whatsoever !

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I don't really understand that comment I wasn't protesting just commenting on how supermarkets do their cashflow such that it doesn't matter that customer transactions take a few days to settle nothing to do with ebay really as I doubt even business sellers can secure such great terms with their suppliers.

There's no point protesting ebay have made a decision and we will have to see how it plays out. On a personal basis I am just sad that they keep making things worse around here but it's their choice as it is our choice on to what extent we want to continue giving their platform our attention and money as buyers and sellers.

I'm a net spender on ebay and have been for nearly 25 years until this change has made me reconsider my life choices. For the stuff I sell on average I don't make a profit the purpose is to get rid of things although like anyone I would want to reasonably recover the value.

[dch2112011]

Apologies I assumed incorrectly you were the poster that the original response you replied to was aimed at.

It matters less for a genuine seller as yourself who has bought an item, got the use and no longer wants it anymore thus  disposing of unwanted personal items below cost because you have taken the value from it for your own use and just want to pass it on for reward.

As a buyer paying 75p plus 4%  within the price is pretty much the same as it always has been except the fees were for the seller - in essence with both sets of fees when applicable hidden in the buy price, it is unlikely to make any difference - the fee is ebays - call it seller fee where the seller adds it into the price or a buyer fee where ebay add it into the price - the buyer doesn't see either and buys on the price displayed.

The difference is  for certain items the buyer can choose the speed and method of delivery - which perhaps you will agree with as a buyer and disagree with as a seller .

It's merely a way of manipulating fees !

[akemp1]

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@dch2112011 wrote:

It matters less for a genuine seller as yourself who has bought an item, got the use and no longer wants it anymore thus  disposing of unwanted personal items below cost because you have taken the value from it for your own use and just want to pass it on for reward.

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I don't think it's safe to assume that all private seller stuff should be in used condition as my own experience is that sometimes I end up selling stuff we have got as unwanted gifts, or have purchased and inspected but not used and decided not to use, or have leftover from multi packs or multi buy quantity purchases where some were used and others are still new, etc so private sellers genuinely have reason to sell new/unused (but perhaps inspected) items even sometimes at modest quantities which were never purchased with the intent to resell.

As a buyer paying 75p plus 4%  within the price is pretty much the same as it always has been except the fees were for the seller - in essence with both sets of fees when applicable hidden in the buy price, it is unlikely to make any difference - the fee is ebays - call it seller fee where the seller adds it into the price or a buyer fee where ebay add it into the price - the buyer doesn't see either and buys on the price displayed.

As a regular buyer on ebay the fee is going to really put me off buying things. Some of the stuff I liked buying is only available in the second hand market mostly from private sellers. It's enough to make me reconsider my buying habits and buy a lot less on ebay. In the past I have often bought stuff on a whim thinking if I didn't like it or it didn't fit in real life etc then I could always put it back on ebay (I'm not the kind of person to return purchases unless they are damaged). That's going to be less of an option if my listings are less likely to sell so I need to be a lot more selective in buying stuff to what I really am certain about.

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The difference is  for certain items the buyer can choose the speed and method of delivery - which perhaps you will agree with as a buyer and disagree with as a seller .

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Even as a buyer i consider it's the seller's choice which delivery company they use as they are taking the risk of having to do a refund and compensation claim if it gets lost or damaged and they are the ones who are going to have to do the drop off possibly at multiple locations each day some of which might be very inconvenient for them because of this stupid change. The stuff is just going to turn up to my house either way.

[dch2112011]

Unwanted gifts or even items from a multi pack are second hand - unused but second hand - technically if you buy anything with the intent to sell such as an item from a multipack it is trading - once is ok but repeatedly ?

Why will a hidden buyers fee put you off when a hidden sellers fee wouldn't ? What is the difference - the name ?

As a seller you built the fees into your sales price and I guess you deducted them when they became free - I am sure as a buyer you would expect that to be done or did you just leave the prices the same to profit from the change ? 

If so net you price down without fees, let ebay add their fees and you will pretty much end up with the price you sold at before fee listings !

Buyers buy the delivery on behalf of the seller - the seller remains responsible 

[akemp1]

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@dch2112011 wrote:

Unwanted gifts or even items from a multi pack are second hand - unused but second hand - technically if you buy anything with the intent to sell such as an item from a multipack it is trading - once is ok but repeatedly ?in n

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Yeah i think it would be different if the things were bought with the original intent to split a multi pack for profit but for a private seller they may have bought the items because the retailer was offering a 3 for 2 or your had to spend enough to get free postage, etc so you end up buying items or quantities you didn't immediately want (or maybe your tastes, requirements or size changed over time) but at the time figured you would probably use up eventually but that time never comes so after a while you conclude they are just clutter so it's probably best just to sell them to someone that might want them. They can still be listed in new or new/other condition even if you have had them a few years although sometimes i say this is old stock in the description if I think think the new item might have been affected by it's age.

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@dch2112011 wrote:

Why will a hidden buyers fee put you off when a hidden sellers fee wouldn't ? What is the difference - the name ?

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I don't believe it will be hidden - the ebay FAQ suggests it will be visible to buyers at least at checkout.

It might be the same maths either way but as a buyer I disagree with the idea that I would have to pay to buy something.  I expect a lot of other ebay regular buyers will feel the same. But as a private seller I would be happy to pay a reasonable seller fee as ebay are doing me a favor helping me get rid of something and recover most of it's value.

My life experience leads me to believe that markets function best when there is minimum friction in the buying experience as it's ultimately buyers that make transactions happen.

I also object to the misleading doublespeak that ebay are using to describe this new 'protection' fee and the upcoming 'simple' delivery changes - they are being deliberately unclear with people which lacks integrity.

[carrotdrusus2]

In all honesty I think everyone knows that Ebay has already reached its peak sales as a business and is now starting to decline.

I am really surprised at this move as I thought by bringing more sellers  that are also buyers onto the site it would improve dramatically as it has done, as happened in Germany. To introduce the buyers fee is a n amazing act of self harm. Ebay seem to be oblivious that buyers can buy low cost collectable items on many other platforms these days cheaper than here now. The lifeblood of Ebay used to be collectors selling old items and using that money to buy other wanted items. That is now being suffocated to considerable degree.

I think that within 12 months Ebay may rethink this , firstly by offering a lot of special offers then possibly scrapping it all together. Delcampe did exactly what Ebay are doing and are now back tracking as all the buyers disappeared. We will see.

[lisamaykes]

Yes I agree, very snide, very patronising and self centered. The sort of folk I avoid in real life tbh because, well, they're just horrible and very punchable.  Most folk that have bought from me have been a pleasure to deal with but there have been a few that haven't and I block those.

Personally I think it's more graft being a private seller than a business seller, they stock continuous lines, import most *bleep* from China and don't give a fig about customer service or satisfaction. Us humble private sellers are far more approachable and go out of our way so that our buyers are happy.

Many private sellers are collectors and very clued up on the worth of items they sell, we are not greedy but we are not fools to be taken advantage of. I would never sell anything for 99p, I'd rather give it away than go to all the hassle of photographing, listing, packing and catching the bus to the post office.  eBay has become just another mass market selling platform and private sellers are slowly but surely being shoved out and made to feel very unwelcome on the eBay site. 

[lisamaykes]

Yes! and it blmmin serves them right! Patronising gits!

[spence0175]

In reality all those people are doing the same as I. Some as hobby sellers. Buy lots, sell some to further collections. Should they be a business or not. Some say yes, some say no

In reality, unless you are buying pallet loads, there is no real proof that what a person sells, is / was their own stuff or bought to sell

And as long as they pay their dues to HMRC, I guess in their eyes that’s what matters.

Its all a minefield…

[dch2112011]

You are a credit to ebay with what and how you sell your personal unwanted items, if only all personal account holders purporting to sell personal items were to follow your example ebay would very much be the place to be and would hold members within ebay.

Unfortunately where you are a great example there are many others who are not so caring, many are traders kidding themselves they are not and blatant businesses muscling in on the private selling accounts which really does you no favours - you attract buyers and are probably buying yourself. 

The service you give keeps buyers within ebay and benefits business sellers as well.

There should be no conflict whatsoever between a genuine private seller as yourself and any business seller, each has different functions and purposes for customers. 

There is no conflict in terms of product lines - a genuine business will not be bothered whatsoever with what you sell but will be delighted that you are selling on ebay.

Your remarks regarding busineses not offering service levels is misguided, there are some exceptional businesses who will and do excell at customer care.

Believe it or not most manufacturing is Chinese based and your derogatory remarks that a business selling goods made in China is substandard is the same as if I said you selling your used items made in China is - how did you put it? 

There are of course some awful business sellers as there are some awful private sellers and it is these groups that both genuine private and business sellers should educate. 

Most of the 'condescending' comments you read are aimed at these groups - sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly  and sometimes to noone in particular just comments and opinions in general.

Certainly your comments read by any decent seller would provoke a negative reaction ?

Rather than get swept up with the nonsensical 'My Dad's bigger than you Dad brigade' you could offer some really good opinions and advice to members - even if they disagree your opinion counts.