Additional fees due to metrics crippling me

[jwrecycles]

Hi

I've started selling all my mountain bike gear about a year ago casually as a private seller and as it started selling so well I decided to do it full time and even gave up my day job at the end of the summer when Ebay insisted a become a business seller.

Mountain bike parts are very technical and my buyers tend to be often on the younger side or not have a great deal of knowledge. As such I had quite a few returns, some genuine (they are used bike bits, things can be missed) but more are often the buyers mistake or even 'less than genuine' buyers who've either broken it themselves or in a few unfortunate incidents, being a lot less than genuine. I had no idea about metrics and only had access to the phone app until recently so not been able to control much.

The long and short is that as my NAD were dreamed very high over 2% I got stung with ebays additional fees the first week

I went over from a private to business account, I went from paying 3.5% fees to nearly 20% overnight. My business went from a real earner having to concider becoming vat registered (I'm in the UK) to in a slow death spiral.

Now my profits are far less, meaning the stock I buy are lower quality, more inclined to have issues and I fear Ebay are slowing my visibility.  I'm also now getting into substantial debt trying to plug this spiral. 

I was told I could contest NAD decisions but have had no joy. I've spoken to several advisers who would try and appeal my case, recognising the firstly my used technical equipment would be more prone to NAD issues and secondly I'm being judged on a period I had no idea, and accepted returns to improve customer experience. I was told twice they'd be in touch within 72 hours but they never did.

One helpful and knowledgeable advisor said accounts can enjoy some degree of exemption status, is this true?

Please help

Thanks in advance 

Josh

[marco@ebay]

Hi jwrecycles, thanks for your message.

No, there is no exemption status at all. Once you start listing items, it's a competition against all sellers. Regarding your fees, I am not really sure what fees you are referring to as fees for private seller fees have been 12.8% of the final amount of the purchase +30p for a good while now, and this is slightly lower than before when it used to be 10% for eBay and 2.9% for PayPal.

Regarding returns, we don't really handle the items you send as a seller unless you use the Authenticity Guarantee program, which is a program for certain items that qualify for this program. So, if a buyer files a not as described return, we might not be able to close the case in your favor as we wouldn't be able to dispute the buyer's reason of the return due to the reason mentioned before. If you decide to challenge a dispute, and this is not resolved in your favor, a refund in full will be issued and no fees would be credited back. You have the option to accept returns, get the item back, and then if you issue a refund in full, the selling fees will be credited back to you.

For further information, you can see how our Money Back Guarantee works here, and you can see our returns policy here.

Thank you,

Marco

[*vyolla*]

Is it viable, with your current business model, to factor in free returns (i.e. you pay postage for change of mind or 'doesn't fit' returns)?

This should prevent buyers from going for a not as described return if they've nothing to gain.

[double_o_heaven]

marco@ebay  Marco, he would have enjoyed the 70 / 80% offers as a private seller so would indeed have been paying the fee percentage quoted.  This is one of the hottest topics on the mentor forum currently - you should pop by 😉

[thesmokingrunner]

Marco,

You replied to the OP's question "One helpful and knowledgeable advisor said accounts can enjoy some degree of exemption status, is this true?" with "No, there is no exemption status at all."

It appears, then, that the advisor was neither helpful nor knowledgeable. It is by no means the first time that advisors have been noted as giving inaccurate and misleading advice, usually in order to end a call, and yet callers with genuine queries believe the advice given - at least until they are given the correct advice by unpaid helpers on these forums.

Is anything ever going to be done about such shockingly incorrect advice being given by advisors?

[4_bathrooms]

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@jwrecycles wrote:

I've started selling all my mountain bike gear about a year ago casually as a private seller and as it started selling so well I decided to do it full time and even gave up my day job at the end of the summer when Ebay insisted a become a business seller...

...I went over from a private to business account, I went from paying 3.5% fees to nearly 20% overnight. My business went from a real earner having to concider becoming vat registered (I'm in the UK) to in a slow death spiral.

---

I'm guessing eBay didn't insist on "upgrading" to a business account until your eBay turnover was approaching the VAT registration threshold. The reason for this is eBay are held liable by HMRC for sellers displaying VAT numbers when required; the only way an eBay seller can dispay a VAT number correctly is by having a business account.

You should have been using a business account as soon as you started trading. This has nothing to do with VAT or tax; it's because distance selling laws require you to display certain information if you are a business (including identifying yourself as a business to buyers). It is only possible to display this information on eBay if you sell via a business account. I suppose the question is if you knew you had to sell via a business account and knew what the fees would be would you have given up your day job to focus on eBay full time?

Anyway, there isn't an easy way out of your current predicament. The 4% extra for being rated "very high" in your service metrics is really an extra ~36.7% as it is added on top of the 10.9% for the "sporting goods" category (i.e. 14.9%) then VAT is added on top of the lot (17.88%). What is your current seller rating? If it is "below standard" for two evaluations that incurs another "4%" fee increase.

Before purchasing any more stock and risking getting any further into debt you really need to ask yourself if the business is viable with eBay's standard fees for business sellers - in your case this is (10.9% + 30p) + VAT. If it isn't I would personally sell off the stock you currently have even if it means cutting your losses rather than trying to make a profit. If it is still viable you need to find a way of diluting your NAD rate; you'll need to find something with a low risk of attracting NAD claims and maybe sell that item at or below cost. Do you already have something held in quantity (I'm thinking bolts or pedals) you could try doing this with? 

Also note that at any point someone else may notice your business model and undercut you by using a private account until they too approach the threshold (or they may choose to stay under it). If this happens there is nothing you can do; reporting the seller to eBay for illegally trading via a private account will achieve absolutely nothing. This is one reason so many business sellers feel aggreived when they see (or suspect) someone is trading via a private account.        

[g6tools]

Can you explain to all of us how you differentiate between a real INAD and a false INAD and what are you doing about false INADs?

You would be disgruntled if your neighbour falsely sent the police around to your house so what protections are in place for sellers when buyers are not honest about a return reason? This is an extremely common occurance on Ebay and Ebay are very quick to take their extra % on FVFs when the metrics are considered 'high'. Why does it take so long to remove false INADs and where does this leave sellers moving forwards. We are already moving the bulk of our stock over to Amazon and if we do not receive a responsible solution to this there will be plenty of sellers abandon the platform. To be clear, I accept that things go wrong or get missed from to time to time but I cannot accept being punished for false reports.

[aj_swift]

For the service metrics they just go off what the buyer has said when they open the return. I have emails saying particular transaction won't be counted against me (was never returned) but when I check the metrics there they are counting against me. I have raised this issue on the phone multiple times but they never get back to me.

[beautifulclothinguk]

EBay are charging 4% extra fees.

there was an exemption.

they are shocking

[robbtyke132010]

My sympathies Josh - many sellers are increasingly being dragged under the eBay  Money Bus & realising that they are in the nightmare situation of throwing extensive time & cash at a business which is failing. You have spent hours & hours photographing & listing items to find that there is little or no interest. You pay promotion fees & Pay Per View fees & watch postage costs increase 2 or 3 times a year. Then there are the returns - new items swapped for old ones, buyers saying their item has not arrived - think of the return postage costs & refunds that entails. And what do you see in your mind's eye? Ebay bankers rubbibg their hands in glee as the money comes tumbling in for just a fraction of the effort that you put in. Next will come the anxiety dreams - even as you sleep you will be squeezed to death by the giant python as it tightens around your neck.....

[myriad*seller]

The only "exemptions" will be when someone on a private seller account undercuts your sales, as they are putting you out of business.

After you report them, then eBay sends you the reply email, saying we don't think they are a business and we won't force them to change account type

That's when you will see that some sellers DO get an "exemption" (from UK trading and consumer laws, it seems!) 

[ett1954]

Here is an interesting question which I have been pondering:

Do private sellers pay fees on poor selling performance metrics?

[jwrecycles]

Ahh didn't see the replies.

Yep, it's a massive scam and only discourages selling either second hand or
technical items, which used to be what ebay was about. Seems I'm going to
have to start selling nuts and bolts and hope the buyer can measure stuff
properly.

I'd taken to refunding buyers asking not to return it but transpires even
if the buyer cancels the return or decides not to return it shows on your
metrics. I've also evidenced that eg an item wasn't faulty when 'reporting
a problem' but they won't scrub it.

Just checked ebays share prices, up 20% in 6 months so speaks volumes,
meanwhile they're milking honest sellers dry.

I gave up my job for this for greater independence but feels like your just
totally under the control of the authoritarian algorithms and metrics. I
know when I started ebay some years ago, you could always speak to someone
who would use judgement and overall a decision but no longer it seems 😢

[robbtyke132010]

Do private sellers pay fees on ANYTHING?

[papso22]

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@robbtyke132010 wrote:

Do private sellers pay fees on ANYTHING?

---

In limited circumstances.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/selling/fees-credits-invoices/fees-private-sellers?id=4822&st=3&pos=1&qu...

[jwrecycles]

I don't believe they get the 4% (plus 1% vat uk). They pay a flat rate of about 13% I believe but usually use the 80% off offer, so only about 4% odd

[papso22]

Standard listings in almost all categories are now free for private sellers, both for listing and for selling.

The seller metrics and performance guidance only links to higher fees for business sellers who fall below the expected standards.  But there are other sanctions that private accounts might be subject to.

[jwrecycles]

They have no final fees? You sure that's not just clothes. Always been free listing fees. Why have a business account then? 

[english-rose2]

im afraid i agree with the OP ebay isnt sustainable, ive just been hit with an extra 4% too.

17 cases out of 471 - wrong item sent - not working - missing parts ect, all resolved without ebay intervention. I literally stand here every day and night and to get this 4% extra charge after becoming a top rated seller is a proper slap in the face.

all other metrics are in the green and top rated, i feel let down and down right ripped off

100 pound item: 10.9% standard fee + 10% promoted fee + 4% (very high return fee) + 20% to HMC

and that spells the end of my ebay career not that the copy and paste chat human bot could give a flying fiddle or could even do anything about it even if he agreed.

this is a race to the bottom and its happening quickly, Ebays ethic is to reward extremely hard work and dedication with higher fees built on the back of a scheme devised for that exact purpose.

17 issues out of 471 sales with 99% positive feedback, all cases resolved with a refund or replacement without the need for ebay intervention in a matter of days.

Ebay taking 4% of every item sold going forward for a year approximately because of problems from the past that was resolved is ludicrous i cant believe the idea made it out of the board room meeting but here we are - sorry that is not going to happen the margins are to fine.

Good luck to all my fellow sellers its only a matter of time before you find this message - Rose x

[nigel_paul_wright7557]

Its surprising how a once profitable business on ebay can suddenly crash.

I was selling some software for £30 an item.

It did well for a few years then another seller came in selling his for £4.

I went over night into something that was no longer worth while.

So went into USB oscilloscopes.

Sold a few ok then some Chinese sellers came in at half the price  and killed that too.