Should legitimate businesses just move to a new private account ?

[howmuchtobid]

Ebay is clearly allowing businesses to trade from private accounts, we are all seeing it, Ebay is doing nothing about it.

So to be able to compete I guess moving to a private account is the only option for many.

[tangobaldy]

I'm not happy finding out that an item I purchased was not from a private seller but in fact cash converters. The only way I found out was because item was faulty and was told to post to the store. It's different address than sellers account. There is no mention of cash converters other than an email address in info. This info should be on front page clearly ,armed what business I'm buying from, not a user game that has no resemblance to the store

[cobwebcottage]

Only send returns to the address on the listing. Open an item not as described case and they will provide a free return label.

Report the seller.

[krafty-kreations]

I'm not happy finding out that an item I purchased was not from a private seller but in fact cash converters

So even Cash Convertors are using private accounts? 

One of those business sellers on a private account has now reduced all their handmade personalised cards to £1.50 with free postage.

Honestly I give up!! 

[therenewalworkshopltd]

Though I'm not saying it's right, Cash Converters are a frachise operaration.

So what is likely to be happening there, is that it's not "Cash Converters" that has done this, but a franchisee of the shop they have.    So not actually Cash Converters that your buying from.

Obviously, they should still be operating from a business account and very likely, should be vat registered as well.

I would be tempted to report them to their head office.

[mamguscarefullycuratedcollection]

It's not even a matter for trading standards, certainly not under The CC (IC&AC) Regs 2013 anyway, as long as the private seller is offering change of mind returns so I can't see much changing for those private sellers who are both registered with HMRC, keeping clean accounts and offering change of mind returns unless ebay starts enforcing their own rules.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

Oh come on, it most certainly is a matter for trading standards.

Selling as a business, covers plenty of rules and regulations, just one of which, is offering returns.

For example, you must display your address.  By using a private account, you are effectively abusing your customers by making them think, that you are a private individual.

There are plenty of legal rights that are being removed from customers, such as making sure that a product is fit for purpose.  A private individual does not fall under these rules.

[mamguscarefullycuratedcollection]

You won't see a prosecution for failure to display contact details because it's not a criminal offence, the sanction is civil and unlikely to crystalise because of ebay buyer protections.

[therenewalworkshopltd]

Not for failing to display contact details maybe.  But for pretending to be a private individual, instead of business, you will.  That's called fraud.

[santlache_sales]

So to be able to compete I guess moving to a private account is the only option for many.

What is the betting ebay never took this into consideration, when they realised that their years of abuse with ever increasing fees on here to maintain their profits was now backfiring, with other sites all offering free listings.

You are 100% right, there is no incentive whatsoever being a business on here anymore, when a private seller can offer the same item at 20% cheaper as they have no eBay fees or tax to pay.

[ready-to-grow-plants]

It's making it very hard for business sellers now. I changed my account from personal to business as soon as I started selling more than the odd item here and there. I wanted to do it right, and I was worried that ebay might kick me off if I didnt... (more fool me I think, in retrospect!)

Whilst I would like in time for it to become my full time job, its a long way from being that at the moment. However, when I changed my account to business, I immediately notived the jump in fees, the cost of a shop etc etc.. the next thing I noticed was that many people trading in a bigger way than me are still doing so as private sellers... makes me feel a mug to be honest, and I feel like very small businesses cannot compete against these mock private sellers! 

[ready-to-grow-plants]

I totally agree... however, its not a level playing field when so many people are doing it, and it'll make many start up businesses on here (the ones who are trying to do it right) unsustainable. 

[secularsid]

For a Trader to pretend to be a private seller is actually a CRIMINAL offence. It breaches the Consumer Protection from unfair Trading Regs 2008... and thus is s criminal offence. Report to Trading Standards (via citizens advice) who are the enforcement authority...

Ohhh but without their name and address ( hidden as they are 'private' you can not....) But TS will talk to eBay and eBay always cooperate... Also report to HMRC as the trader is likely also missing tax... HMRC from Jan 2024 are clamping down on these people.

Also if you find a fault in the goods ( not as described) and do an auto return via eBay and they send you a postage label… WITH THE SELLER'S NAME AND ADDRESS on it.

Private sellers do not have to cover return unless goods as not as described… so be careful to use the right reason.

Don’t report to eBay though, as they do not care and allow this practice....They ONLY consider a seller to be Trade if they sell over 80k ,, this is historic as they aligned the figure with VAT threshold... when being a Trader and a vat payer have nothing to do with each other... many traders are under the threshold ... but try telling eBay that.

For REAL definition of a trade just goggle HMRC definition of selling in course of business... It’s simple.
This may change now that selling for private persons is free... so this makes the traders pretending to be private, losing eBay money!!!!

Hope this is helpful to you.

[secularsid]

On the contrary.

Now that private sellers pay no fee there is a massive imperative for eBay to seek out and remove sellers lying about their status.  Thus, almost by accident, the consumers will finally get their rights, not because eBay care, but eBay can’t afford to lose all the fees these traders would avoid by pretending to be private.  Before they did not avoid any fees,

I suppose on the downside is that errant Traders who can get away with it not only avoid consumer law, but now also save on fees…  I cant see ebay allowing that to happen for long.

All winners I guess.  Unless you are an immoral Trader…. But tis is eBay… there are not of Dem!

[secularsid]

Whether or not you are a trader is NOT based on turnover... or even profit.  It is based on how and why.  I coud sell my Renoir for £40m and not be a trader....  I could sell three Christmas Cards I make and I am!

Everyone needs to take a look at the definition given by HMRC.  Including the doughnuts in eBay.  They STILL base it on cash sales ...  I have spoken to them and this is what they admit.  It is aligned with the old VAT limits. On ebay if you sell over 90k they calss you as a trader.  Less and they refuse to.

I have one chap who in his adverts admits he buys computers, repairs and rebuilds them, sells them… has a shop, and an internet site… and still says he is private!!!!  And eBay agree because his turnover ON EBAY is under 90k!!!!

 Be clear. Being a Trade is NOT to do with volume or amount.  If it were then half the plumbers or painters and decorators in the UK earning less than 90k (current vat), would not be in a business or trade!!

eBay are multijurisdictional and do not understand UK law regards what is and is not a trader.

Things will change VERY soon I am glad to say

[secularsid]

Maybe in the past but eBay are onto this and coming for the traders who do this?  Why? Well before if a trader pretended to be a private seller eBay still got fees and it was just the buyer who lost all rights in consumer law..

That has now changed.  Due to private sellers being exempted all fees, any trader pretending to be a private seller is cheating consumers till... but now they are cheating eBay... and eBay don’t like that.

Only trouble is, some genuine high volume seller who really are private ( there are some) might get caught out.

Forget eBay for a moment. It is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE  for a trader to pretend to be private. It is contrary to the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regs 2008.  That means you … yes you the chap with 20 watches and pretends to be a collector disposing of his watches, or the lady with 200 ne chanel dresses…. 

[dch2112011]

I think you will find that ebay are more interested in increasing member numbers and number of items being sold rather than enforcing any regulations regarding business status. 

There will be a reason for ebay ?

ebay and others have openly stated that they are not distributors and have refused to be held responsible for members sales except where they are already legally forced to preferring to pass the responsibility back to trading standards who have been given a guarantee by ebay that any reported member will have their account suspended within 2 hours of the report - However :

Trading standards have equally stated that they will take no action against sellers pretending to be private sellers unless a specific buyer has been disadvantaged by the seller's action - this means that reporting these businesses to either ebay or trading standards has no effect unless ebay make a personal decision or trading standards have proof that the individual reporting the trader has suffered loss.

Trading Standards answer to the problem was to recommend education in secondary schools was included in the national curriculum to make students aware of the perils of buying on platforms - another member has confirmed this is now in place.

You could take personal civil action via the law courts against these sellers but without financial loss personally - what would you gain ?

[ett1954]

"ebay and others have openly stated that they are not distributors and have refused to be held responsible for members sales except where they are already legally forced .... "

eBay do not even follow this requirement - It takes less than 2 minutes to find numerous 'private' sellers selling foodstuffs breaking numerous Food Safety Authority laws in addition to eBays own policies which stipulate that you have to be a business seller to sell food.

[pg_kicks]

I'd love to share your optimism but I think you are wrong, I sent over a list of 20 accounts, all clear businesses on private accounts when a manager in concierge asked me to, all I done was type in Air Max 90 and took 20 from the first page of listings, thats how bad it is in my category. The manager in question said yeah these arent businesses, they had over 200 pairs of brand new trainers, all different sizes but to him (and eBay) they are not a business. Every single one is still operating, eBay (Sholto/Eve/anyone high level) do not care about consumer rights, they care about their wage and they get a better bonus if they produce good figures for traffic, they will happily lie to their customer base telling us that they are working on it and have plans, theyve said this for years, its a copy and paste stock answer whenever we ask.

Again, if anyone in eBay HQ is reading this, I know you all do, I will happily pay for my own travel if I'm granted a meeting with anyone in eBay (anywhere in the world) who will answer questions honestly and allow me to post the responses as sadly every single manager, executive, team leader fails to answer questions with a honest none politician response that skirts around the issue with something like we really are working on stuff to combat this. Its pretty simple to solve but for the above reasons eBay wont solve it.

[secularsid]

The apathy of eBay and of Trading Standards is not in doubt. Simply by default a solution was being found is what I eluded to. If the status quo continues eBay will lose money, so the status quo will not continue, thus as a collateral accident, the problem should dissolve..

You say; "Trading Standards have equally stated that they will take no action against sellers pretending to be private sellers unless a specific buyer has been disadvantaged by the seller's action". 

Of course that decision is Ultra Virus and will one day be challenged by way of Judicial Review.  They are the enforcement authority but consumers have the means also to pursue, in particular the 2014 amendments to the Regs I previously mentioned permit this avenue.... but it would be a civil action.

Removal of one’s statutory consumer rights is, in my respectful opinion, a clear, gross and deomnstarble ‘disadvantage’.

The very fact that a consumer buyer does not have, for example,  the facility of a reg 29 cancellation ( cancel, at nil cost including  for no reason) provided to a consumer sale (at distance) under The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 is de facto, a disadvantage,  as are the other depravations a consumer suffers, even if they are unknown to him. For example, they include, inter alia; the right to a statutory guarantee for 6 years,' Typically rivate seller offer no gaurentee and no reurn (other than not as described)

Consumer protections have been established over generations and are vital to fair and proper commerce in the 21st century and the very fact that we are discussing the problem of traders masquerading as private sellers ( for only nefarious reasons ) is in itself a shame.  That some aim to excuse or lessen the damage is disappointing... but predictable.

As for taking private civil action against these tyrants.  A strange notion one might think... How can one do so when one of the depravations ( TS seem to not consider) is that the innocent buyer suffers from the lack of a name or address of the seller…. Protected erroneously by eBay under the auspices of GDPR. One cannot sue that whch they can nt name...

That said, I have personally sued 4 traders on this very point and won discounts of up to 100% (keeping the gods) due to the provisions of the Amended 2014 regs mentioned.  (look up discounts and Prohibited Actions)

One DOES NOT need to show damages in the case of misreprention ( Prohobited Practice to use the new Jargon).  There are many ways to skin a lying cat.... 

The biggest and indeed the only challenge I faced was finding their identity.  I shall not reveal herein how that may be achieved. It is exceptionally easy.

Finally I would respectfully proffer that just because Trading Standards and EBay do not give a fig… we should not ignore this problem. I shall not give up buying online because the consumer protections I have doing so far, far outweigh any available on the high street.    

I hope you find tis useful

[secularsid]

You sound like me for the last 21 years.  Re read my psosts and you will see we ageee. 

I can't see ebay leaving it as it is, not now they stand to lose so much... 

Maybe  am wrong.  Time will tell.