GPSR Compliance

[bojangled]

This is as clear as mud to me. Been to the gov. advice website and various others.
How does a 1972 poster fit in to this process?

It's not an exempt category. 

Advise buyers this item is for viewing only ? 

My initial reaction, sadly, to to switch EU and NI off. 
Jo

[dwtrading2015]

(31)

"Depending on the legal system of each Member State and the field of law at issue, national judicial or administrative authorities, including law enforcement authorities, may order providers of intermediary services to act against one or more specific items of illegal content or to provide certain specific information. The national laws on the basis of which such orders are issued differ considerably and the orders are increasingly addressed in cross-border situations. In order to ensure that those orders can be complied with in an effective and efficient manner, in particular in a cross-border context, so that the public authorities concerned can carry out their tasks and the providers are not subject to any disproportionate burdens, without unduly affecting the rights and legitimate interests of any third parties, it is necessary to set certain conditions that those orders should meet and certain complementary requirements relating to the processing of those orders. Consequently, this Regulation should harmonise only certain specific minimum conditions that such orders should fulfil in order to give rise to the obligation of providers of intermediary services to inform the relevant authorities about the effect given to those orders. Therefore, this Regulation does not provide the legal basis for the issuing of such orders, nor does it regulate their territorial scope or cross-border enforcement.

(32I)

The applicable Union or national law on the basis of which those orders are issued might require additional conditions and should be the basis for the enforcement of the respective orders. In the event of non-compliance with such orders, the issuing Member State should be able to enforce them in accordance with its national law. The applicable national law should be in compliance with Union law, including the Charter and the TFEU provisions on the freedom of establishment and the freedom to provide services within the Union, in particular with regard to online gambling and betting services. Similarly, the application of such national laws for the enforcement of the respective orders is without prejudice to applicable Union legal acts or international agreements concluded by the Union or by Member States relating to the cross-border recognition, execution and enforcement of those orders, in particular in civil and criminal matters. On the other hand, the enforcement of the obligation to inform the relevant authorities about the effect given to those orders, as opposed to the enforcement of the orders themselves, should be subject to the rules set out in this Regulation." I  can not see where "only imposes liabilities on the provider of the online platform".  "may order providers of intermediary services to act against one or more specific items of illegal content or to provide certain specific information. "  Such illegal content laws already exist and are applied and the platform is to provide a single link to obtain the certain specific information.  Nothing about liability for the sale, olny the dissemination of information.

[cooksongold]

It isn't strictly true that 'Amazon are doing none of this'

On their EU storefronts - the requirements are literally the same as what ebay are asking for. Manufacturer, Responsible Person, Safety Docs. I beleive they are even asking for shots of all sides of the packaging. Elements of this were indeed present on pages for things like Kindles and Echo Dots on amazon.fr earlier this month - though I can't find them now.

Where they aren't doing any of what ebay are doing is on Amazon UK - but you can still sell to EU and NI there - so its unclear what will happen at this point...

[gl_trading]

This is what Amazon are telling their 3rd party sellers:

Hello,

We’ve identified that some of your product listings don’t have Country of Origin information.

European Union and United Kingdom customs legislation legally requires Amazon to collect Country of Origin information for products in ALL of your selling stores shipped through FBA Export programs from non-EU countries into the EU, and into the UK.

In the coming months, product listings without a Country of Origin will start to be restricted from cross-border sales. To lift the restriction, you can acknowledge that you’ll provide missing information by December 31, 2024. 

From December 31, 2024, product listings without Country of Origin information will be restricted from cross-border sales until the required information is provided. 

[ekomseryt]

I concur with what you are saying.  Which is why we currently only display on the UK storefront, and will revisit the others in the New Year once the dust settles on all of this.  Amazon have, however, currently clearly decided that NI is not a separate part of the UK, whereas eBay are fence-sitting.  That may change in either case.

What I was trying to indicate, somewhat clumsily, is that the Amazon Marketplace database has been updated subtly over the past few years essentially to remove any used or collectible product that does not have a CE mark or suitable packaging - ie originally offered for sale pre 2001 regs (sound familar?).  Our action each time has been to either make our offer compliant, or remove it, which is what we will have to do here once we know what eBay have decided to do (having done nothing at all until a couple of months ago)

You may not have noticed also that any product offer listed in the Amazon Marketplace under the category 'Collectible' no longer qualifies as a 'Featured Offer', even when it is the lowest price of all offers.  We have interpreted that as a precursor to their simply removing that category at some point - maybe 13th December?

[baby_buzz_direct]

You quoted preambles 31 and 32, not articles 31 and 32. See below for the latter

Article 31

Compliance by design

1.   Providers of online platforms allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders shall ensure that its online interface is designed and organised in a way that enables traders to comply with their obligations regarding pre-contractual information, compliance and product safety information under applicable Union law.

In particular, the provider concerned shall ensure that its online interface enables traders to provide information on the name, address, telephone number and email address of the economic operator, as defined in Article 3, point (13), of Regulation (EU) 2019/1020 and other Union law.

2.   Providers of online platforms allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders shall ensure that its online interface is designed and organised in a way that it allows traders to provide at least the following:

(a)	the information necessary for the clear and unambiguous identification of the products or the services promoted or offered to consumers located in the Union through the services of the providers;

(b)	any sign identifying the trader such as the trademark, symbol or logo; and,

(c)	where applicable, the information concerning the labelling and marking in compliance with rules of applicable Union law on product safety and product compliance.

3.   Providers of online platforms allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders shall make best efforts to assess whether such traders have provided the information referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 prior to allowing them to offer their products or services on those platforms. After allowing the trader to offer products or services on its online platform that allows consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders, the provider shall make reasonable efforts to randomly check in any official, freely accessible and machine-readable online database or online interface whether the products or services offered have been identified as illegal.

Article 32

Right to information

1.   Where a provider of an online platform allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders becomes aware, irrespective of the means used, that an illegal product or service has been offered by a trader to consumers located in the Union through its services, that provider shall inform, insofar as it has their contact details, consumers who purchased the illegal product or service through its services of the following:

(a)	the fact that the product or service is illegal;

(b)	the identity of the trader; and

(c)	any relevant means of redress.

The obligation laid down in the first subparagraph shall be limited to purchases of illegal products or services made within the six months preceding the moment that the provider became aware of the illegality.

2.   Where, in the situation referred to in paragraph 1, the provider of the online platform allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders does not have the contact details of all consumers concerned, that provider shall make publicly available and easily accessible on its online interface the information concerning the illegal product or service, the identity of the trader and any relevant means of redress.

There is no mention whatsoever of any liabilities of the trader/seller towards the EU. We just have to deal with Ebay regarding any GPSR issues.

[ekomseryt]

You may be confusing people here by conflating GPSR with the Digital Services Regulations - the clauses 31 and 32 you quote are from the latter, not GPSR which is what we are discussing here.   That regulation was enacted a couple of years ago, so if eBay are simply trying to comply with that now it means they did not at the time - highly unlikely I think.

You also previously quoted an opinion ('Otherwise, traders risk being suspended.... ' etc) posted on a legal company website nearly 18 months ago discussing the draft, not the final regulations themselves.  Legal opinions are exactly that, plus they can change over time once more defined information emerges, or the regulation wording changes.  Which is why we prefer to work with what is currently in front of us.

You may, of course, be right and eBay will adopt that nuclear option.  In which case, as I said, we will just have to say farewell to eBay and find another way to sell our goods.   

[darth_baggins]

Yet there's also a quote doing the rounds from an Amazon spokesperson on their seller forums that says it doesn't apply to UK sellers at as the UK is not in the EU, which I'm pretty confident is not true.

[baby_buzz_direct]

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@ekomseryt wrote:

You may be confusing people here by conflating GPSR with the Digital Services Regulations - the clauses 31 and 32 you quote are from the latter, not GPSR which is what we are discussing here.   

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The Digital Services Regulations (EU) 2022/2065 are referenced frequently tough in the GPSR regulations. See in particular Article 22 there ( 'Specific obligations of providers of online marketplaces related to product safety,)

[dwtrading2015]

I was following the link given by baby_buzz_direct which I believe is GPSR

[dwtrading2015]

Even these 'articles' do not infer that eBay is liable for the sale, only that the seller is given the tools to conform with EU regs and intervene of an illegal item is sold, such a system for illegal items already exists although eBay intercept the listing at an early stage and remove it.

" shall ensure that its online interface is designed and organised in a way that enables traders to comply with their obligations"

[4_bathrooms]

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@cooksongold wrote:

Where they aren't doing any of what ebay are doing is on Amazon UK - but you can still sell to EU and NI there - so its unclear what will happen at this point...

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I agree it's bizarre. Amazon UK's position so far has been that as the UK is not part of the EU then GPSR will not apply to UK sales. They seem to be completely ignoring (or oblivious to) the fact that GPSR will apply to sales to Northern Ireland from Great Britain.  

[4_bathrooms]

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@gl_trading wrote:

This is what Amazon are telling their 3rd party sellers:

Hello,

We’ve identified that some of your product listings don’t have Country of Origin information.

European Union and United Kingdom customs legislation legally requires Amazon to collect Country of Origin information for products in ALL of your selling stores shipped through FBA Export programs from non-EU countries into the EU, and into the UK.

---

This is due to Rules of Origin (ROO) legislation; it is not because of GPSR.

[cooksongold]

This blew my mind - this was amazons logic for why they believed their stance...

''Under GPSR, it's important to look at "the order creation country" not the destination country as order creation country indicates where listing takes place. UK is not a part of EU therefore if the order is created on amazon.co.uk and sent to Northern Ireland, that order doesn't need to comply with GPSR. If the order has been created in any other Amazon EU Marketplace and sent to NI, those listings will need to comply with GPSR regulations.

As an example, when you buy a phone charger at UK airport during your transit flight and you take the charger back to your home in Germany. You can not expect that charger to be complying with EU regulations.''

[dwtrading2015]

That's a very odd example since during transfer you are still air side and therefore not entered the UK, not having passed through passport control.  Not sure which jurisdiction will apply though but I would assume you would still be deemed to be importing the charger and hence any applicable EU regulations would apply and if inspected at the EU border the charger confiscated if requirements are not met.

I therefore stand by my earlier statement, this new set of regulations is going to end up being suspended because it is a mess and there are so many interpretations going on.  LUCID regs seem to have gone the same way. 

It could also be the various platforms for online selling are deliberately mis-interpreting the rules in different ways to make it unworkable to force the EU to abandon the expectation the platforms will police and impose punishments.   I am pretty sure I did read the EU will expect to see ALL trading activities suspended of traders by online platforms who do not comply.  Maybe the obfuscation is the push back!

[4_bathrooms]

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@dwtrading2015 wrote:

That's a very odd example since during transfer you are still air side and therefore not entered the UK, not having passed through passport control.  Not sure which jurisdiction will apply though but I would assume you would still be deemed to be importing the charger and hence any applicable EU regulations would apply and if inspected at the EU border the charger confiscated if requirements are not met.

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It's a stupid example. For the purposes of the GPSR consumers are never treated as importers so the purchaser has no GPSR obligations to comply with. It would also not be a distance sale as the consumer and trader are physically present at the point of sale with the trader being located in the UK so the trader has no GPSR obligations to comply with either.

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@dwtrading2015 wrote:

I therefore stand by my earlier statement, this new set of regulations is going to end up being suspended because it is a mess and there are so many interpretations going on.  LUCID regs seem to have gone the same way. 

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I doubt they're going to be suspended. The GPSR is already law; manufacturers, importers, distributors, retailers and online marketplaces are currently enjoying an extended implementation period before enforcement commences on 13th December.

Also, as far as I'm aware Germany's LUCID requirements still apply and have never been repealed nor suspended.

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@dwtrading2015 wrote:

It could also be the various platforms for online selling are deliberately mis-interpreting the rules in different ways to make it unworkable to force the EU to abandon the expectation the platforms will police and impose punishments.

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If the platforms fail to police the products they allow sellers to offer to the EU/NI/EEA the EU Commission will fine them; the EU Commission has made that perfectly clear.

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@dwtrading2015 wrote:

I am pretty sure I did read the EU will expect to see ALL trading activities suspended of traders by online platforms who do not comply.  Maybe the obfuscation is the push back!

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The "non-compliant product" must be removed from the marketplace. Some toy sellers experienced this in an early compliance check by eBay - I think @fatbobfan was one such affected seller. Affected sellers listings weren't just hidden from EU & NI buyers but summarily removed along with all associated selling history. eBay has since seemingly taken the stance that listings missing compliance information will simply not be made available to buyers in the EU & NI. However, I suspect if eBay are informed a product is not compliant after being offered for sale to the EU/NI the listing will be completely removed rather than hidden from GPSR-affected countries.

[jayfive2001]

I was also a victim of this compliance check it appears. I had half a dozen listings for baby toys (jigsaws, building blocks) removed saying that my account was not eligible within hours of me editing them and all my listings to test what I can fill in on the Item Disclosures section. These listings have been on and been relisted on ebay for months if not years without issue. I fulfil this eligibility criteria by orders of magnitude. I rang up ebay and they said put in an appeal. I asked what aspect of the eligibility criteria I was appealing. They said they didn't know and I would find out once the appeal had been processed. Kafka-esque.

That was a week ago and nothing has happened with the appeals. I rang ebay just now and they said they still didn't know why the items were removed and why the appeal had not been processed and would put it through themselves.

Meanwhile I had a prolonged chinwag with them (specialist team, UK based advisor) about all things GPSR. They said no in fact used items arent exempt but you can prhaps put a disclaimer in your listings saying "Manufactured before 13/12/2024 and exempt from GPSR as per Article 51". I said that's great in theory if correct but if bots are patrolling ebay to check GPSR compliance all they will almost certainly do is check the disclosures section and if anything isn't filled in the listing is removed. I said that by the letter of the law and the precedent the baby items I've had removed (which again eBay themselves don't know the reason) come the 13th ebay are going to be taking a flamethrower to their customer base from the likes of MusicMagpie and AbeBooks downwards. 

eBay CS at that point said "Just try and add as much GPSR info as you can and see what happens on the 13th". I said if thats the advice OK but I'm not taking the risk of waking up on the 13th and finding my inbox melted from 1000-2000 removal notifications. It's taken a week to try and get 5 listings that ebay themselves know are fine relisted so you'll have to excuse me if I don't want to do it for 1500. EVen if the de-listings won't affect my account the amount of work that would be involved is ridiculous. And again there is nothing anywhere telling sellers how many of their listings are compliant and what a given listing still needs

As someone who works on inbound calls myself I sorely pity eBay CS in the next few weeks. It's going to be bedlam. Firstly the uncertainty about what is required, why it is required and what will happen when the requirements are not met. Then post-13th when whatever it is ebay are going to do to ensure compliance kicks in. And all this during the run up to Christmas. The eBay CS lady all but admitted to being in the dark about it all as we are and had no idea how ebay were going to police these regs in 3 weeks time or what it is sellers of used/second hand/vintage items can and are expected to do.

Like many of you I'll be playing safe and turning off EU and NI postage at Account Settings level as well as GSP in the first week of December until the fallout settles. Until such time as someone can give me a definitive answer to the question "Do I have to add safety regulations to an ebay listing for a book and how do I go about doing that". That is my course of action.

[fatbobfan]

I stepped away from this thread/subject as it was messy, confusing and troubling, still months later seems the same.

Some really disappointing reads in terms of messing sellers around, and lack of response to sellers issues and concerns, you've at least four just in your post 'See what happens on the 13th'  'They said they didnt know' 'admitting to be in the dark' plus the mandatory call not returned, 

Add in the many 'grey' areas, sellers are only dealing with Ebay UK but the next hurdle will be the EU's implimentation of the regs, could this mean the returning of parcels? Post December 13th.

Have sellers been advised of a suggested switch off date fro EU&NI that is definitely safe for sellers or a best practice to avoid disappointing customer? Has Decemebr 13th been given to allow for Xmas deliveries and the delays those usually bring. 

We know the date, so as sellers we know anything after that date returned is of our own doing but do we know when Ebay will be policing, when the bots/system with be implimenting.

[fatbobfan]

'That is really quite poor on eBays behalf, especially as we all have the pleasure of paying their regulatory operating fee but seem to be getting nothing for the privilege. '

A very good point, this thread most definitely highlights it

[retroelectro-vintage]

Hi, does anyone know yet if you can still send items via Global Shipping to the EU and NI, or is it just direct international shipping to these countries that requires this information?

[4_bathrooms]

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@retroelectro-vintage wrote:

Hi, does anyone know yet if you can still send items via Global Shipping to the EU and NI, or is it just direct international shipping to these countries that requires this information?

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The information is required regardless how the items are shipped.