Asked to provide my NI number.

[ukbanditaddicts]

I received an email today requesting that I update my account and provide my National Insurance number, as I have reached the threshold for either items sold or the selling limit.

My question is this.. I am simply selling some personal items that have accumulated in my garage over time. I am not making a profit, nor do I consider myself a business. I’m happy to close my eBay account and stop selling altogether. What will happen if I choose not to provide my National Insurance number and immediately stop selling?

[jonatjonatjonat]

Because they don’t know if you are liable for tax without the information that eBay provide. It isn’t suspicious.

Unfortunately some people dont know, or don’t care that they are liable for tax.

unfortunately, the system caters for the weakest link, not the strongest

[roband_95]

I assumed they meant that was the personal possessions selling threshold for INCOME tax purposes - that was the obvious conclusion and they didn't mention capital gains tax let alone it's specifics. It's all above my pay grade (or rather being paid grade) anyway.  

[dch2112011]

The age of technology has finally caught up with HMRC - the NINO just makes it easy for the HMRC system to link all of your finances - banks, shares, properties, online selling, benefits, to name a few.

From this information the system automatically calculates any tax you may be liable for -  so if you have  a couple of air bnb or rental properties undeclared - they will link to you, you sell  50k a year on ebay, amazon, facebook and etsy - they link to you - you have 6 bank accounts they link to you - you have shares -they and  the dividends link to you - pensions from work or state they link to you - savings accounts, bit coin or anything else that generates revenue - the only thing they really take no notice of are ISA's  

If you fail to provide your NINO - it is very likely ebay will have to suspend your account and HMRC will have to manually link your online earnings - not just from ebay - I would just supply it and avoid any unnecessary future attention 

However if you  have  just a few thousand in  selling unwanted possesions and nothing hidden you have no worries whatsoever - AI is always correct isn't it ?

[ett1954]

" AI is always correct isn't it ?" - Whilst agree totally with that sentiment; I would add that HMRC's Connect software is not AI driven.  It merely collates figures from all sources against a Tax Identifier and determines, from the algorithms in its programming, whether any further attention to that Identifier is required.  This not only to determine whether someone is not paying tax but also whether someone may be under-declaring their income.

Any investigation is carried out by a 'human'.  The system is designed to cut out virtually all the 'leg-work' of the previous manually driven system.

[dch2112011]

Times are changing according to HMRC - AI is already playing a huge part in ' making paying tax easier  - 

Extracted from HMRC Transformation Roadmap

HMRC will become digital-first by:

automating tax where possible – where minimal customer effort is required to pay tax because it is calculated and deducted by an intermediary, such as an employer. This is currently the case, for example, with PAYE or where a third party such as an online platform provides HMRC with data to enable it to prepopulate tax returns

offering digital self-serve options – HMRC will provide improved digital services, enabling customers and intermediaries to self-serve online. These services will be built with accessible, secure end-to-end journeys which makes getting tax right easy with the help of AI, tailored nudges, alerts and pre-populated data

Extracted from HMRC IT Strategy 2022 -2025

HMRC has clear strategic objectives and technology acts as a key enabler and accelerator to these. External trends, such as the use of AI to detect tax fraud or digital identity to make it easier for taxpayers to engage with HMRC, are further increasing the importance of ‘getting technology right’ for HMRC as an organisation.

[ett1954]

"Any investigation is initiated and carried out by a 'human'." - is the point I am trying to get over.

From comments made to the Daily Telegraph last week (my bold):

HMRC has confirmed it uses artificial intelligence (AI) to monitor social media posts as part of criminal investigations into suspected tax cheats.

It said the tech would not replace "human decision-making" and was subject to legal oversight.

"Greater use of AI will enable our staff to spend less time on admin and more time helping taxpayers, as well as better target fraud and evasion to bring in more money for public services,"

A spokesperson clarified AI was only used this way as part of criminal investigations - not on the everyday tax payer.

Government investigators have for years looked at the social media posts of people suspected of wrongdoing in relation to tax and benefits.   HMRC is now partially automating the process through the use of AI - with human oversight.

HMRC have been using such methods for some time along with investigating credit card purchases, travel tickets and generally lifestyle against declared income as part of investigations after an investigation has been initiated by an inspector.  

At the end of the day only those with something to hide should be concerned.

[dch2112011]

5 days ago what you pasted was widely reported however the internal HMRC documents I refer to clearly show the direction HMRC is following both now and by 2030 - they are two different issues.

The gist that relates to ebay and other online platforms is that HMRC are already using AI to analyse the information submitted and AI is using this information to prepopulate tax returns.

This is simply a non human method of collating harvested information using AI to pre fill a tax return to calculate a tax demand which will be delivered to the tax payer .

A close family member had one this year where AI calculated tax based on harvested pre filled information, issued a tax demand with all sources and information pre - entered, it was reasonably accurate although following the calculation dates was a headscratcher  and although in this instance there was no tax to pay it did deduct the attributable income from the next year's allowance and issue a tax code for the following year , which means that if the remaining amount approx 4k is exceeded this coming year then the amount over 4k will be taxed 

Obviously an appeal can be made involving a human but up to this point it is 100% AI generated.

Investigations are not relevant at this stage nor are appeals  - AI flags tax payer investigations which are allocated to the relevant team, HMRC no longer like the use of investigation but replace it with compliance - a softer approach !  

Appeals put the onus on the tax payer to prove the AI generated and pre populated return with the tax demand incorrect - until such time you are liable for the AI analysed harvested information and the tax demanded.