A Bitter Rant about the 4% extra Final Value Fee

[stortvalley]

After 23 years on eBay I have just incurred the 4% Extra FVF on my products. Which take me below break even on some items. For Very High “Item not as described” or "Defective" rating.

The problem seems to be that buyers think that the Title is the desciption and never look at the description, which is so far down the page that they are not aware that it exists

When you are logged in as a seller and setting up a new listing, the descripton is close to the Title, but when a potential buyer looks at your listing he does not see the description. Instead they see other suggestions for similar products FROM OTHER SELLERS on YOUR SELLERS listing, and they have to scroll down a long way to see the description, which most don't do. This leads to a number of "Items not as described" or "Defective".

I recently had had 10 items "Items not as described" or "Defective" of which only 4 were genuine manufacturing faults, and 6 were just where the buyer had not seen the description.
All of the 6 so called "Defective" items where put right by directing the Buyer to the description and closed by the buyer.

I had 3 Two hour sessions on the phone with eBay Week ending 04/05/2023 with no satisfactory outcome.

I would appreciate any comments, Especially on how long this situation will last

Thanks People

[therenewalworkshopltd · Accepted solution]

You need to work out which listing/s is actually causing the problem.

If there is a particular item, then can you amend the title, to make the issue go away?

Or perhaps add in a photo, that shows what it is?  

I think 99% of buyers don't look at the description and base their decisions on the photo's and title only.

As to how long the situation will last, it depends on how many defects you have (and may get) and how quickly you can clear them.  At an absolute minimum though, a month.

[dch2112011]

I cannot see anything wrong with your titles they seem very specific to the items being sold, your prices are very competetive and your feedback is excellent - so what is going on ?  10 x not as described /defective seems disproportional to what is public on your account.   I guess this is over last 12 months ?

Service metrics are calculated against your peers and all not as described cases opened are counted even if they are closed by the buyer 

On 20th month you are evaluated however if sales are less than 400 in last 3 months it is based on the previous 12 months ie a rolling year 

One thing that sticks out is how hard a couple of negs hit your percentage - this may be due to the percentage game  and relatively low feedback numbers which always  penalises relatively low volume sellers.

Could you introduce a couple of bargain bucket  safe items to boost the numbers game and dilute the effect  by bringing you in the 3 month evaluation period ? 

The number of defective products again is high against sales numbers - Is this isolated to one product in the range or random across the board ?  Could you test products before delivery ?  

[m.g.jewellery]

Could you possibly make up a little template stating any defects and then upload it to your photo gallery?

I have a template in my photo gallery not for defects but to list some of my best selling points becasue despite being new to eBay, I'm not new to selling on platofmrs like this and I know all to well that customers dont read the description but I think they do tend to flick through all the photos.

I make my templates up on Canva, you can make a simple template up using the free version.

I hope this helps.

[ojewellery]

Its a numbers game now as @dch2112011, 20th of every month.  You know if you sell 400 over three months so your percentage is estimated over 3 months or if its less over twelve months.

You can see on your seller dash/ Performance/ Service metrics,  what your current percentage is 

Here's mine, I'll just polish my halo - it doesn't always look like this.  You take your items not as described and divide by sales in the evaluation period.  You can drill into the defects and see when they'll fall off the calculation sheet.  So it could be that a couple wont be relevant in the next assessment and you'll bounce back below your peers and be back on track.  It could be that its a few months before they'd naturally fall off and so you need to consider your options.

One option is to work out the volume of sales you'd need to change that percentage.  There was an interesting thread recently on why some sellers sell things at 99p - when its near impossible to cover costs at that price.  On that theme, whilst its harder to make a percentage per sale profit, having regular higher turnover selling items, at any price, can help preserve you're higher value sales.  Whether its selling off excess packagaging at near cost, fuses, oil, connectors - anything you can easily access without necessarily having outlay, it could be increasing your overall sales could save you your 4% and continue to protect you from that certain percentage of buyers who are angry at the world - this year is definately seeing more of them.

[bravergrace]

This problem arises from buyers only reading the title and not the description.

One solution is to use the title to highlight any potential problems.

- Antique oak table for restoration, needs a new leg

- Vintage fishing rod DAMAGED

- Miniature Bible ONE INCH tall suitable for doll's house TINY MINI

- Tin opener FOR LEFT HANDED PEOPLE 

- Antique teddy bear EYES NEED REPLACING

- British passport case FITS pre-1960s passport ONLY

- Vintage cape CLASP BROKEN NEEDS REPAIR

- Frilly lace cap FOR MEN

[sheba-knows-best]

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@ojewellery wrote:

and continue to protect you from that certain percentage of buyers who are angry at the world - this year is definately seeing more of them.

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Well, isn't that the truth! Never have I seen a year with such bitter post-pay-day returns.  All my fault of course, not the buyers for buying what they couldn't really afford (and I'm usually so positive 😋) 

[sheba-knows-best]

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@bravergrace wrote:

This problem arises from buyers only reading the title and not the description.

One solution is to use the title to highlight any potential problems.

- Antique oak table for restoration, needs a new leg

- Vintage fishing rod DAMAGED

- Miniature Bible ONE INCH tall suitable for doll's house TINY MINI

- Tin opener FOR LEFT HANDED PEOPLE 

- Antique teddy bear EYES NEED REPLACING

- British passport case FITS pre-1960s passport ONLY

- Vintage cape CLASP BROKEN NEEDS REPAIR

- Frilly lace cap FOR MEN

---

I do agree - but, hate to break it to you -  but I think @m.g.jewellery  is right.  I think more and more, Ebay is searching the titles - so won't see your warnings - whereas buyers are looking at photos. So the warnings have to be put into the photos. 

[stortvalley]

Item is defective	Seller	Yes	Genuine Buyer Refunded
Item is defective	Seller	Yes	Genuine Buyer Refunded
Item is defective	Seller	Yes	Forced Refund Not an Honest person. Misused the eBay Refund System to spray a car. We phoned and asked what was defective about the £1465.00 Air Compressor and one of his employees aswered the phone and said there was nothing wrong as he had just sprayed 2 cars with it. We were used as a tool hire shop. plus we had to pay a carrier £96.00 + VAT to collect it.
Item is defective	Seller	Yes	NOT DEFECTIVE He ordered the  domestic water pressure booster  pump out the bilges on his boat but unfortunately the depth of the bilges to where the pump sat is too long and it did not pump any water. We refunded him and he closed the case
Item is defective	Seller	Yes	Genuine Buyer Shipping Damage We sent a replacement charger: This return was closed on 18 Jul because the buyer closed the return.
Arrived damaged	Seller	Yes	Genuine Buyer We sent a replacement Parts: This return was closed on 09 Nov  and the buyer closed the return.
Doesn't match description or photos	Seller	Yes	Forced Refund Not an Honest person. Did not have the skills to fit it and Misused the eBay Refund System
Received wrong item	Seller		Buyer apologised for Ordering the wrong item.  We replaced at no charge Buyer closed case
Item is defective	Seller	Yes	Genuine Buyer Refunded
Item is defective	Seller	Yes	Genuine Buyer Closed by the buyer Had not read the instruction book or the listing. We explained he was not using it correctly

[stortvalley]

Thanks to every one who answered this . I suppose this is price of doing business on eBay with items that require buyers to think before they buy.

[bravergrace]

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@sheba-knows-best wrote:

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I do agree - but, hate to break it to you -  but I think @m.g.jewellery  is right.  I think more and more, Ebay is searching the titles - so won't see your warnings - whereas buyers are looking at photos. So the warnings have to be put into the photos. 

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Yes, you're right.

But putting these warnings into the photos can easily fall foul of the polcy on photographs - such as the rules against added text.

• Photos that don't accurately represent the item
• Placeholder images used to convey messages
• Stock photos for used, damaged, or defective items
• Photos with added borders
• Photos with added text, artwork or marketing material
• Watermarks of any type, including those used for ownership attributions

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/listing-policies/picture-policy?id=4370&st=3&pos=1&query=Pictur...

And as a matter of principle, I don't think sellers should use these boards to advise other sellers to break eBay policy.

[m.g.jewellery]

I wasn't aware of this rule, thank you for letting us know.

I'm new here and wasn't using the board to deliberately mislead someone - I was trying to help.

[ojewellery]

I love a title with a fault highlighted - to me it shouts out this seller is really upfront and honest, I also love a photo with arrows/ text highlighting the fault.  I have used the later on occasion to highlight a fault such as kink in chain on a seconds item.  I also use added arrows and dimensional text on images shown against a scaling object - currently mainly a pound coin.

The later two fall foul of the picture policy and so I've been experimenting with a ruler + object + coin in photos.  But I don't think they're as clear to interpret size. 

Its all food for thought and I hope there is a little wiggle room for interpretation within a picture set

[m.g.jewellery]

Sometimes I think rules are odd. Most of the time, there is good reason but sometimes you just think WHY?

You'd think eBay knows that many customes simply don't read the description so surely, it cant hurt to try and be clearer in ways that may grab their attention better.

As a Jewellery seller, you'll know how often you see reviews from customers saying "it was smaller than expected" or customers buying Huggie Hoops and leaving reviews saying they're only suitable for a small child becasue they're expecting big hoops when the sizes and dimentions are always mentioned in the description 😭

[stortvalley]

I have investigated why I never get these problems on Amazon or our own website.
It is because in both cases we have the bullet points on the same level as the main image, Not a page and a half scolling down.

Try signing out of your account and look at your listings, you will see them as potential buyers see them.

I wonder if we could make a suggestion to eBay to make this available. I cannot imagine eBay would be a bad actor if they realised the problem. 4% on a £1500 item is quite painful. £60.00

People need detailed information before they buy.

[ett1954]

@stortvalley   "People need detailed information before they buy."

I agree ............ however eBay feel it is more important to saturate your listing with promoted items before any description.

[stortvalley]

Would it not be better to say in the Title"scroll down to description" or "important. "Read Description"

[stortvalley]

I have been on eBay selling expensive machinery for 23 years, and I have investigated why I never get "not as described" problems on Amazon or our own website.
It is because in both cases we have the bullet points on the same level as the main image, Not a page and a half scolling down.

I wonder if I could respectfully make a suggestion to eBay to make this available. I cannot imagine eBay would be a bad actor if they realised the problem. More sales and less problems for everybody.

People need detailed information before they buy. Not a few words you can put in a Title.

Thanks anyway

[therenewalworkshopltd]

I sold on Amazon for a long time myself, selling considerably more on there, than on Ebay.

I quite often got item not as described, simply because listings get changed without your knowledge.

And I was selling a lot of groceries, batteries, bulbs, white goods etc.  Not exactly the sort of things that you expect to those claims on.

The plus side to that though, is that if your using FBA, then the defects tend to go away.

As such, I find it very difficult to compare Ebay to Amazon in this regard.  

Ebay however, I rarely get these claims, as I control the listings.  

I do agree with you, in that the description could be a lot more prominent.  So many buyers just don't read it.  I regularly get questions from them about information that is very clearly on the listing.

But buyers are lazy and you have to work around that.

[dch2112011]

On face value you seem to be offering excellent customer service often going above and beyond - my only thought is why are all of these customers opening a case rather than contacting you first and you sorting it out without resorting to the MBG -

I know a lot of experianced members seem to advocate - open a case and ignore the seller - when in reality for good honest sellers like you this is absolutely not what should happen - these cases go against you  - as you realise - a damaged or defective item could  mostly be dealt with between yourself and customer - without waiting for a case to be opened.

You appear to have a great attitude to selling and certainly I would not hesitate buying from you -  I guess the question is what can you do to avoid so many cases being opened - even though you handle them in a great manner.