Is It Ever OK To Shout At Someone Else's Child?

[lambsy_uk]

I heard this question asked on the radio today in the wake of an incident in a restaurant in USA where a cafe owner shouted at a child after the parents had failed to keep them quiet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3168500/Diner-owner-defends-yelling-2-year-old-stop-crying.h...

I have shouted at a child on at least one occasion, other times I have at least spoken to them sternly telling then to decist from doing something.

The time I shouted at a child was about 2 years ago when I was in an outdoor play area with my girls. A young boy of about 4 or 5 years old was throwing handfuls of gravel around and much of it was hitting other children. I told him in forthright manner to pack it in and so he did, for a while. A boy of about 10 who had been taking a peppering while sitting on a ride thanked me. However a minute or two later the boy started to throw gravel again with me not far away and so I shouted "I SAID PACK IT IN", at which he ran off with his tail between his legs.

I was half expecting to be confronted by a parent or two but it didn't happen.

So what's your opinion on chastising other people's children?

[upthecreekyetagain]

Regarding the suspension you mentioned then I don't think that swearing on its own would merit this sanction.  Obviously if that language was also accompanied by a refusal to carry out the instructions of a teacher it may well merit severe action.

With an average of 30 children in a class a form teacher has just 12 minutes with each pupil in a 6 hour school day.  To effectively carry out their primary job of educating the children they therefore have to treat them as much as possible as a group.  This leaves even less time for one to one care.  This isn't making excuses for teachers that do fail in their duty but does explain how difficult it is for teachers.

Of course it would be great if class sizes could be reduced and the number of staff employed by schools increased dramatically.

What most certainly doesn't help is a general attitude that problems in schools are caused by teachers - as far as I can see they don't cause the problems but rather try their best to cope with those problems.  Do they get it wrong some times? - of course they do and when they do then the right reaction is to see how a situation could be dealt with better in the future with the resources available - unfortunately however the first reaction is often to ask who is to blame and to seek redress.  What frustrates many teachers is that they can put forward a solution to a particular problem but implementing this is often impossible due to lack of resources, (human and physical), and the support of parents.

So what is the solution? - Quite frankly I don't think there is one that would solve all the problems all the time.

What would, in my opinion, go a long way though would be greater involvement in school life by parents of pupils.  Many struggle even to find volunteers to become parent governors and members of the PTA let alone volunteers to help in classrooms or with extra curricular activities.  The only contact many parents have with a school is when a problem arises when it is too late.

[joamur_gosof]

Class size is of course a centre as has been mentioned and agreed to on here and probably everywhere sense is spoken.

I would say in reply to what doesn't help  is the attitude that the parents are whole to blame as brandished on here.

Now I am trying to get across poorly that a change needs to happen and soon...it is not the fault of parents or teachers in general...stop pointing fingers...it is the failings of a system...I was always at the school having discussions with the teachers, I was also meeting the parents as I said...for me it was the breakdown in the school environment  because of a few and because of the exact reasons yourself and others are making for the teachers case,I have a lot of respect for the job the most were doing in the environment made for them...and this is where I am aiming my shots..at the environment of school,it is not within the parents influence and can only be discussed with the teachers in that environment ..when those teachers are hapless also because of this and I was hapless and many other people ,the system is being controlled not by what is right but by what is not working.

Mistakes happen of course, I for one do not suggest a utopic system ,but I would have expected  no less than a zero tolerance to bullying as per schools own mandate,so who failed when a child who wanted to learn is bullied to death in that system ?

If you say the underclass or the parents (except for me)  you are not really wanting to see an improvement but are just being a lawyer arguing for teachers rights to make mistakes.

Now environment  acceptable and adults vs children parenting compulsory...I blame the governing bodies mostly then the schools environment for the teachers and the children then the parents of the few (and it is a few most of the children in the school I am talking about were credits on every level  more so than all the adults )

My son has asked me to stop on here now and we shall continue alone it seems to try and get the right school system in place and get the whole system to hold its hands up and come up with a real working solution for all but first and foremost the children..

[Anonymous]

JG,

I feel your frustration and this thread must trigger a lot of pain for you. You tried your best in a system that is failing many children, and your family paid the highest price. I'm really sorry for that and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

We have all agreed that the first responsibility is at the parent' feet, especially in the first few years of their lives when they are solely in our own care. Most also agreed that teacher's hands are often tied by rules that don't work. We have agreed that classes are too large nowadays. We have spoken about the problems that teachers are facing with special needs children and the influx of foreign children which are not up to speed.

In the past these problems didn't exist. Not when I was at school anyway. Teachers had more authority, they commanded respect (so did policemen). When children were so unruly that even those teachers could not deal with them in the end they were just expelled and that was that. No special treatments outside school to keep them learning something. No help, no home schooling. It was just the end of the line.

So pretty straight forward.

Those choices are gone. Human rights and all that...................

I agree and did mention that it is the job of all of us, parents, teachers, society, government, media to sort this out.

I have been more that frustrated with the school system here. I blessed the day when my daughters left school.

It needs a good overhaul, so I do get where you are coming from.

Bullying is unacceptable and more should be done. Sadly bullying has increased dramatically over time, not only at school, but also through social media networks. It does raise for me the question...Why is that? What happened in our society that has caused it to escalate so much?

Bullies often have a lack of self esteem and the only way to get it is to make someone else less than them, so they can feel better.

So the core issue there would be asking where these self esteem problems starts. Does it start at home?

[joamur_gosof]

I think my daughter always had a smile and loved interacting especially with adults,it was indeed her self esteem that I was desperatly trying to award her...,her courage was a tribute to her,but in the end it was her self esteem that was destroyed if you ask me,and that was how it all got too much...you are correct though that it seems to be out of control and out of the control of the teachers as well,.

The positive is the government appear to be about to taclkle the problem in a manner we will all agree to (almost) and that I am clearly waiting to see and so are a lot of teachers . Too many chiefs too many reasons why and nowhere near enough actual sensible adulting.

Thank you for your kind words harry ,I am ultimatley to blame though hence I don;t point fingers at groups,I see a problem in the school system thats all and it isn't hard to correct it if people unify.

I want children skipping to school with a smile and most important ..skipping home with the same smile ,not a lot to ask as so many people are involved with what to do ,,costly at that, for what appears to be a serious shortage of what to do imput.and even less common sense.

Last bit ..I repeat ,shouting at louts is a responsibility for all adults. 

[Anonymous]

JG,

You are NOT to blame. Let go of that.  As parents we can only do so much. As I understand it you tried and tried to be heard......and no one was listening. For that I'm deeply sorry.

To change someone's self worth isn't an easy task if everything else works against you...it's hard enough when you have all the tools.

Hopefully there will be changes in the future.

[******lynda******]

When I was at primary school, we had classes of 43 kids, one teacher, no classroom assistants.The idea of not obeying the teacher would never have occurred. OK, if teacher left the room, fidgeting started and talking that got louder the longer teacher was gone, and running around by some, but only until the first hint of the teacher's return. I expect there was some bullying and there was squabbling in the playground, but a teacher patrolled there, so it was minimal. Dealt with. Obviously there were odd occasions someone got told off, in class, but usually for whispering to a friend or not paying attention. Compared to today, it was nothing. No corporal punishment in any of my classes. The Head was the only person to deal with that, and it was rare.

If a teacher threatened to tell a parent about some misdemeanour, that was enough to guarantee good behaviour the rest of the day because the child knew they would get a slap at home. 

Learning was not fun and games. We had to memorise. No calculators then...and I disapprove of their use instead. 

My OH recently asked 2 top high school students what 15% of 60 was when they accompanied a business colleague into a meeting on work experience. They did not know. They knew what 10%was, but could not make the leap and demanded a calculator. My OH pointed out, he need to be able to work things like that instantly in his dealings and might not have a calculator to hand. 

I think the biggest loss is the sense of community, where everyone watched out for everyone else's children. But then, we played in the streets and most mothers did not work. They mothered.

[malacandran]

---

@******lynda****** wrote:

When I was at primary school, we had classes of 43 kids, one teacher, no classroom assistants.The idea of not obeying the teacher would never have occurred. OK, if teacher left the room, fidgeting started and talking that got louder the longer teacher was gone, and running around by some, but only until the first hint of the teacher's return. I expect there was some bullying and there was squabbling in the playground, but a teacher patrolled there, so it was minimal. Dealt with. Obviously there were odd occasions someone got told off, in class, but usually for whispering to a friend or not paying attention. Compared to today, it was nothing. No corporal punishment in any of my classes. The Head was the only person to deal with that, and it was rare.

If a teacher threatened to tell a parent about some misdemeanour, that was enough to guarantee good behaviour the rest of the day because the child knew they would get a slap at home. 

Learning was not fun and games. We had to memorise. No calculators then...and I disapprove of their use instead. 

My OH recently asked 2 top high school students what 15% of 60 was when they accompanied a business colleague into a meeting on work experience. They did not know. They knew what 10%was, but could not make the leap and demanded a calculator. My OH pointed out, he need to be able to work things like that instantly in his dealings and might not have a calculator to hand. 

I think the biggest loss is the sense of community, where everyone watched out for everyone else's children. But then, we played in the streets and most mothers did not work. They mothered.

---

This is a good post. It shows how much has been lost in Britain, since the 1950's.

The 1950's were I think, the time when Britain was at its best.  We had Grammar Schools, to teach the best and most intelligent children. Who could then go on to academic careers, in all branches of Science and Scholarship.  Regardless of the children's social  "class".

The social "class" didn't matter - any child could gain access to a Grammar School.  All the the child had to do , was pass the 11+Exam.

[upthecreekyetagain]

As someone 'schooled' during the 50s and early 60s I have to say that is a very idealistic viewpoint. 

I remember those children from 'poor' families having to queue separately for school dinners whilst holding their 'free school meal' tickets and being taunted by the other children who got their meals first.  It was also the era when teachers were at liberty to abuse children without fear of reproach and took advantage of that - children from the poorest families making up most of the victims.

Children from the poorest families in general left school at 15 irrespective of their academic abilities.  We hear much about how children from even the poorest families could get a place in a grammar school and go to university without cost.  Apart from a few, (who are often held up as examples of an 'ideal' school system), most children from poor families didn't gain entry to the grammar school system and even fewer went to university.  A much larger proportion of disadvantaged children go onto further education now than ever did in the 50s.

[******lynda******]

I don't agree about the poorest. My dad earned £7 a week, we lived in a coronation street type house...not ours...and I went to grammar school. I lived in a very poor area and quite a few of us did OK academically. We envied those who got free dinners...cost 5s a week for the rest of us...hated school milk. . I was 16 when my mother got her washing machine...we all sat in the kitchen and watched it. We had a rented TV by then, but the washing machine won. The one thing that was better, and I wished I had not passed my 11+, was that those who failed got to go to secondary modern and learned useful stuff, like typing. My brother went to sec mod..he became a teacher. His school was far better equipped than my grammar. I wanted to leave at 16, because, not having been allowed by parents to do sciences, I decided I wanted to work in a bank. By age 18, I was too old to be taken on...they wanted 16 year olds. But back then, there were still plenty of opportunities for the less academic and you were not expected to go to uni to be a nurse or join the police, for example. More jobs where you learned while working. But my post was merely to highlight the difference in attitude to discipline, which is lacking now. We moved several times and I never saw any abuse by teachers at primary school. The maths teacher at grammar was not above chucking a blackboard rubber but detention for not getting homework correct was more likely. My dad had also grown up in a deprived area and he went to grammar school too. I only had the blazer the first year, second hand, as were my shoes and gym kit. Once I grew out of the blazer, I never got another. Made me the odd one out but I actually quite enjoyed being different.

[bankhaunter]

The social "class" didn't matter - any child could gain access to a Grammar School.  All the the child had to do , was pass the 11+Exam.

The good old days when children were divided according to their ability in theory but in reality into winners and losers.

[astrologica]

Like Lynda I lived in a poor area as a child. My father was a miner, and we struggled. I passed the 11+, and went to the local all-girls Grammar School. I loved it at the time, and was very eager to learn. However, although I didn't realise it at the time, it was the most class-ridden place. Not one person at that school ever gave me any encouragement, or suggested that I could have a career in Art, which was all I ever wanted. Years later, I enrolled at an Adult Art class, and I saw another student at the class that I vaguely recognised, but couldn't think where I knew her from. We got chatting, and she turned out to be my old Grammar School English tutor!

It was very weird when she asked me to address her by her Christian name, as I had always been terrified of my tutors at school. (They all wore long flapping black gowns!)  although she was much older than me, we got along fine. We actually discussed our old school, and I expressed my opinion the the school was class ridden. She actually agreed, and said that children like me, no matter how bright we were, were not really wanted there, but tolerated because they had to. That merely reinforced my view. But, she did say that she always had a soft spot for my sister and myself, because we were eager to learn, as were most of the scholarship children who came from poorer families. Class differences were there then, and still are, and I think, always will be.

[Anonymous]

I think we need to mix the old with the new. We do live in a different world and we need to find a way to take the best out of both worlds.

I personally feel that children should stay in secondary education till they are 18. They are already making some changes in that direction.

Kids will have more time to find out their own strengths and weaknesses. They have more time to get a better grounding in the subjects of their choice, which will in turn allow them to be better prepared for college or Uni. Teachers will have more time to teach them the skills they need. Children will be able to make better career choices for their future as they will be more mature by that time and hopefully waste less time doing studies they are not cut out for.

Most kids don't know what they want at the age of 16. I certainly didn't.

In this new world children also need skills we never needed and for that they need more time, so they can still get a good grounding in the "old subjects",  without just getting a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

The pace is fast in all areas of life nowadays and we all have to cram in so much more than in the past, so if we want to help our children, then we have to give them a good fighting chance to keep up with it all and prepare them well.