Fair ebay have evidence of lying buyer, refunds so buyer has item & money?

[firsteditionbookstore]

Dear All,

In December 2020 I sold the rare & old Walt Disney book Santa's Workshop. The buyer agreed that it was as described, but left a false negative feedback. ebay have now just advised me that I am without the money and the book, and a dishonest buyer is holding all the cards over me. Unfair of ebay to support dishonest buyers.

BACKGROUND

• Buyer has written to get more money off the item falsely stating that the item was not as described.
• When through ebay I poinrted out that the book was as described, and including the issues he raised he demanded the return of the book
• I assumed ebay would see the evidence and ensure justice was done. I WAS WRONG! THEY DID NOT!
• It is clear that the buyer wanted more money off the item, through devious means

STATEMENT FROM ME THE SELLER

The ebay description I posted made clear the faults, stating:

"The rare dust jacket is in Good condition being mostly complete, with a crease to the front cover, small loss to the front cover, crease to the back cover, small loss to the top left corner of the back cover. But, the flaps are complete, advertising the following Walt Disney books to the front flap:"

This was also posted in the "Conditino" section of the ebay posting as well as in the main descritpion.

STATEMENT FROM THE SELLER

There is clearly no recouse through ebay for a dishonest buyer, who put in writing that he knew the book was as described and falsely stated in his ebay message: of 23 Januaury 2021 :

"I see what you are saying, but the images themselves, which are the main depiction of an item,"

NO TRUST IN FAIRNESS THROUGH EBAY

If buyer had an issue with the images and read the description he had the option to ask a question before buying. He did not.

ebay needs to be honest and fair.

The buyer now has the book and the money, and I do not know what condition the book will be returned in,if returned at all. Thank you ebay for assisting in this fraud.

WE NEED TO PROTECT OURSELVES FROM EBAY FRAUD

The vast majority of my dealings with Customers on ebay has been very good. I have even received a recent positive feedback for another Disney book that had defects, and the comment was "as described". Ebay were made aware of this and ignored this too!

I now have to remove all my valuable items from ebay because the risk of fraud on ebay is too great.

ebay simply ignored all my messages and the evidence.

How can anyone possibly say that it is safe to buy and sell on ebay, where there is no accountability for those lying and breaking enay rules - and they are given your money and the item - and iof returned you have no recourse if it is not returned in the conditino it was sent!

I wish ebay would take fraud seriously!

[red_magpie]

I'm afraid that what you describe is the norm.

EBay's stated policy is that when they are unable to determine that an item is as described, they will support the buyer. As they never even see the item, it's almost a foregone conclusion that cases will be found in the buyer's favour.

When they support the buyer, the seller is required to send them a prepaid return label. If the seller doesn't do so, eBay will enforce the refund and will not require the item to be returned.

It's become clear that eBay takes little notice of anything the seller says to support their case. In all but name, eBay gives buyers a 30 day trial period, in which they can allege any fault to claim a full refund. I think that part of the problem is that if the buyer's claim was genuine, they could sue eBay for failing to honour its money back guarantee. EBay doesn't give any guarantees to sellers, so it's safer for them just to support the buyer. In the user agreement we have agreed to accept eBay's decisions. As eBay is unregulated there is no right of appeal to any independent authority.

It gets worse. If a buyer keeps the item received, and returns a worthless one, eBay says that as they never saw the item concerned, before or after delivery, they "can't take sides". Once again eBay's idea of not taking sides is to make the seller refund the buyer. EBay also allows buyers to open a case for a refund just one day after the latest estimated delivery date, but then does nothing if they keep the item as well when it arrives. Even with tracking evidence to prove delivery, eBay does nothing to support the seller.

EBay has become an absurdly risky place to sell anything of value because their money back guarantee to buyers is so wide open to abuse.

[firsteditionbookstore]

Dear red_magpie,

Thank you so much for your reply. But, there is a more serious issue here.

1. ebay has a provision for putting a complaint against a buyer who misuses the not as described return option

2.ebay uses their own messages system, has been advised of the correspondence, can see the correspondence for themselves, and ignored the evidence and contributed to the fraud

From what you say I am concerned that I will not see the book again, and have already lost the money.

This is theft and fraud, and the ebay system allows for criminal activity.

You state that this is the norm. This is of great concern to me and should be to everyone who uses ebay.

I HOPE THAT EBAY MONITORS THIS SITE AND READS THESE MESSAGES. I HAVE HAD MONEY FALSELY TAKEN FROM MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT AND I WANT TO KNOW IF I WILL SEE THE BOOK AGAIN! THIS IS THEFT & FRAUD. I THOUGHT I COULD TRUST EBAY!

[plpmr]

unfortunately if a buyer opens a not as described case and the seller refuses a refund this is what happens - eBay force the refund even if the item has not been returned - its all automated.

You can get the neg removed as the comment mentions eBay.

[firsteditionbookstore]

How do I get this removed please? I have NEVER encountered anything like this before and am now concerned about not receiving this $400 item back. This i s theft and fraud.

I have followed ebay's policies to the letter, described the book in detail TWICE - main description and the "Condition" fields - and the buyer has even agreed that it i s as described.

See my other recent feedbacks, includes items as described comment!

I am an honest dealer, who does not deserve this theft and fraud.

There needs to be at least some protection for sellers. I have just removed a large number of items for sale. Please advise how I may get the negative comment removed and how I may get my item back.

Thank you so very much in advance.

[plpmr]

eBay feedback policy is that eBay involvement/case etc cannot be mentioned in feedback and the comment includes -

“eBay agreed & let me return”

Also of note is the buyer's acknowledgement that eBay expected them to return the item.

Ask eBay to remove for the stated reasons – good luck.

https://ocsnext.ebay.co.uk/ocs/home

At the bottom is a contact us button.

[firsteditionbookstore]

Dear Friend,

Just to let you know, ebay just sent an automated message to advise that
they will not remove the negative feedback.

So, the ebay buyer:

1. Criticised that the book was NOT as described that it did not mention
creases, etc ASKING for a further discount
2. I replied THROUGH ebay quoting the description that stated the creases,
small loss, etc
3. Buyer agreed then criticised the images
4. Buyer then asked for a full refund
5. I contact ebay to complain - ignored
6. Customer informs me through Feedback - BEFORE ebay - that ebay agreed to
the refund and for him to send back the item
7. ebay take $520/£400 from my account on the false premise that the book
was not as described
*8. My feedbacks confirm my integrity - with great feedback comments that
were totally unsolicited!!!*
9. ebay refuse to take down his feedback
10. We have a perfect con or fraud or theft or call it what you like.

I have taken down all items on ebay since I do not want to be stung again.

Most of the people I have come into contact with (your good self included)
are genuine and decent people. But, it is the odd ones that will cause the
worst problems - they target the higher priced items to try and get them
for free by abusing the ebay system, which seems incredibly easy to do!

The only alternative if I am to lose so much money unfairly,and may not get
the book back, is to post regularly on social media to protect others. I
did not know about this ebay scam until it was too late! Others must be
warned.

Thank you so much for trying to help me, which is truly appreciated.

[rusticrye]

Ebay can have no idea what you actually sent, or what condition it was in when sent or received or received back, as they were not present when sent or received, so have no choice but to accept a buyer's word for it when they claim Not As Described, as per their Money Back Guarantee.  They cannot get into disputes between you and a buyer.  Only a judge can decide if a buyer is a liar or scammer.

You agreed to comply with the MBG when you registered your account. If you dig your heels in and refuse to offer refund on return, Ebay will either force you to pay for a returns label, or they will force the refund without the need for return. You will also have a damaging defect slapped on your account for failing to comply.

This may sound unfair, but it's the fairest it can possibly be.  The MBG is a very good thing (although you may not think that at present) as it gives buyers the confidence to shop with you and every other Ebay seller.  Without it, you'd be lucky to sell anything at all.  In fact, without it, Ebay would no longer exist.

If the item is returned, you have to refund on receipt, and then report the buyer to Ebay for abusing the MBG by fraudulently claiming Not As Described (via the 'report' button on your ‘leave feedback’ page) if you're 100% sure that's what they've done.  A few of those from different sellers, and their account will soon be toast.  And add their Ebay ID to your Blocked Bidders List so they can’t darken your doorway again.

You can then deal with the buyer outside of Ebay as follows:

Send them a PayPal invoice to cover your losses, giving them 7 days to send cleared payment or you will be taking legal action and reporting them to Action Fraud (the police's online fraud unit).

If payment is not received within that timeframe, send them a 'before action' letter by Signed For post, giving them 7 days from receipt to make full and cleared payment, or you will report them to Action Fraud, and take them to Small Claims court to recover your money and all court and other costs.

If payment is still not received (unlikely, as this is generally enough to put the fear of god into small-time fraudsters), take them to Small Claims court if you wish.  Very easy to do, and the process can be started online.

@firsteditionbookstore 

[firsteditionbookstore]

Thank you for your response. But there are some very serious issues with
what you write.

1. The item was as described, and this is confirmed by the Buyer

2. There is an ebay dispute process - which I understood was for buyers and
sellers

3. ebay had the evidence that even the buyer agreed that the item was as
described but ebay refused to view the evidence

4. There is no email address since even on the PayPal form it comes from
ebay and there is no field for the email address

5. The person is in the US

6. Regardless of the country, the person is in breach of ebay policies
including extortion where he stated that the items was not as described, I
quoted the ebay listing, he agreed and then tried to say that it was the
photo that should in some way take precedence over what was stated

7. The buyer was not concerned about condition of the item when buying, if
he was he would have pressed the button and asked a question. HE DID NOT!

8. This is clearly unfair where I have acted honestly, and appealed the
return - NOT refusing the return.

9. This is a $400 book that I expect to get back. If I do not then clearly
in my view ebay have allowed theft and fraud on their website through the
clear abuse of their policies.

There is nothing fair about this process, where the evidence is ignored. It
appears that this judgement was done through an automated process without
the intervention of any human beings.

If ebay states it cannot act fairly, then it should not have the pretence
of having policies, procedures, and a complaints system that they do not
even adhere to, and allow theft and fraud.

[tsmgmd]

In most cases like yours everything seems to stem around the seller ignoring how the system works for return.

If a buyer opens a claim for not as described no matter how many calls you make to eBay they cannot budge.

The law in the UK is quite clear that a seller must refund all costs in such a case.

Now where the problems seem to arise is that instead of following procedure, issuing a returns label and getting the item back some sellers start phoning eBay.

Meanwhile the automated case shows the seller appears to be ignoring the return and eBay step in and refund the buyer from your funds and may even say keep the item..

[firsteditionbookstore]

Dear Friend,

Many thanks for the advice. I have just sent the request to ebay to remove
the false feedback.

I do not know why ebay has allowed the feedback because I did email them
through their ebay system.

It does seem to be an automated process to give a verdict with no
explanation or reasoning.

The buyer made clear that the book was as described, and yet I have $400
taken from my account. Regardless of the country this is regarded as theft
and fraud. And, trying to get a partial refund by making a false statement
that the book was not as described, conforms to extortion. This is one of
the things ebay is stating it is protecting people from. This does not seem
to be the case.

Maybe it is social media that will hold the answer. People should be made
aware of fraud, theft and extortion. ebay had many weeks to do something
about this, and refused to do anything or even engage with me. That does
seem to speak volumes.


But, thank you again for your kind advice. And, please stay safe and well
during this pandemic.

With kindest regards,

The First Edition