Should Muslim women be allowed to wear a full-face veil in court?

[merehazle]

Lord Neuberger, the President of the Supreme Court,  said that judges should allow women to wear traditional dress as they should 'show, and be seen to show'  respect to different customs.

Wearing a veil is not a religious requirement and respecting the culture of the chosen country is more important than making a political point.  It is impossible to tell if someone is lying if you cant see their face. 

Will he be recommending that we ALL be allowed face hiding? Or is that just another one of the many special privileges, handed out to the special few?  This is the UK.  Mr Neuberger.  

Who's playing the victim card?  

[bankhaunter]

True but with much opposition, it depends on how any particular denomination or individual, interprets the various verses of the Bible dealing with the matter.

Verses such as “A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)

[ravendays]

The pertinent difference here is that the bible (at least in the UK) isn't being adhered to like some OTT rule book for trampling over common standards of dress.  In fact barring the odd catholic faux pas most other religions practiced here barely register not that they should...

[******lynda******]

"The difficulty is banning full face covering may lead to those women not being allowed out of the home. This creates a situation where they are vulnerable to abuse, with no one to turn to. "

The thread asks about covering the face in court. If they are not allowed out of the home after being summoned to court, there would be consequences from the court.

[******lynda******]

Many modern women acquiesce to subjugation, and that is not necessarily a religious decision. Many women are happy for their man to take charge, others find themselves in a relationship where to voice opposition can result in some form of abuse, possibly just verbal, or being ignored for days at a time, as well as those who receive physical abuse. Some of those will never leave those situations, even if they can. They may suffer the relationship, or they may simply adapt and keep quiet.

I think that the freedom to wear what one wants is important and not all Muslim women resent their religion's practices. Many do not envy us what we see as our freedom. they feel safer under what they see as their protection.
But
We have our laws and our courts and if they live here, they have to abide by our laws and courts. Being in a courtroom is not the same as walking down the street, where they could feel vulnerable. Therefore their reason for covering the face is somewhat negated. In this country, certain people do not have to be seen in open court but there has to be good reason. I don't think religious convention a good enough reason to be hidden in court. It is important to see the facial responses to questions as we rely on signals to assess truthfulness.

[malacandran]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

Verses such as “ But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)

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Don't all men secretly agree with that?  Except that western men don't carry it so far, as to require women to walk ten paces behind us. Encased from head to foot in a black shroud.  With only a narrow slit for their female eyes to peer out from.

That I think, is taking a basically good idea, to the extreme.

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@******lynda****** wrote:
"The difficulty is banning full face covering may lead to those women not being allowed out of the home. This creates a situation where they are vulnerable to abuse, with no one to turn to. "

The thread asks about covering the face in court. If they are not allowed out of the home after being summoned to court, there would be consequences from the court.

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I was replying to CD who was making a more general point about the issue of integration, not specifically confined to court appearances. 

[malacandran]

 Muslim women seem  constrained by their clothes. This stops them committing many crimes.

Such as crimes which necessitate rapid running away from the scene of the crime.

Thus, no strictly orthodox Muslim woman could successfully conduct a "smash and grab" raid on a jewellery shop.  Because the big black shroud which she has to wear,  goes right down to her feet.  And thus inhibits the rapid leg movements required by running away.

This could be good.  It means that an enshrouded Muslim woman cannot actually commit such a crime.  Instead, she shuffles along behind her husband.  Ten paces to the rear.  While tempting him beguilingy, with a loud whisper,  to smash the window and grab the jewels.

The more I think about this idea, the more I see its potential,  from a woman's viewpoint. 

Do some clever Islamic women reason in this way?

[danielworgandesigns]

I believe that it should be compulsory for all ugly women....

[ravendays]

One would wager after today's results any such woman will be allowed to do as she pleases.  The current mob are after all hellbent on pleasing such individuals to the chagrin of the rest of us...