My buyer arranged a courier for a 'collection only' and now wants a refund

[burnerbee75]

I think I'm just venting - it doesn't seem much can be done.

I sold a 55+ year old sofa a couple of weeks ago on ebay. It was described as 'mid century'  and in used condition. I included photos. It was up as 'collection only'.  A bidder sent a lot of questions which I answered with complete honesty (including the fact that it isn't comfortable to sleep on!). She won and organised a courier. She didn't ask if that was ok, just did it. I was ok with that luckliy - though I was sure to say it was at her own risk - and expense. (The couriers arrived at 9pm, having given two hours notice they were coming to collect it and were a shambles - but that's another matter).

The buyer rang me at 10.20pm the next day (yes ten twenty, in the evening) to tell me at great length how 'thrilled' she was with it - 'amazing', 'beautiful', 'very, very happy'.

Four days later she emails to say she wants a refund as the sofa is not as described. I was speechless. She sent 14+ emails in the next  8 hours (and many more since then), demanding a refund, that I collect it immediately (she's 300 miles away), that it was filthy, how upset she was, that she wanted to negotiate on professional cleaning bills*, that she'd found bugs in it (which I was really insulted by), that she'd had to throw away her new vacuum cleaner because of the bugs.  She was going to put it outside, due to it's filthy condition and, yes 'the bugs'. 

I was at work all day - outside - and could barely look at my phone, never mind read all these messages, never mind respond to them all.

I did of course reply to say it was an old sofa, accurately described with recent photos and I thought we should get ebay involved asap.  I did however say that I would accept the sofa back - provided it was in the condition it left  - but I wouldn't pay for a courier /  collect it.

*I will not negotiate on cleaning fees - I did not claim it was clean, I said it was 'used' - though it appeared to be and has always had a blanket over it  in my parents house (no smoking or shoes allowed in the house - no eating or drinking unless sat at the table - yes, they were quite strict!). Who expects a sofa made in the 60s to be immaculate?!

I also saw that ebay's 'money back guarantee' is invalidated if the buyer uses a third party to collect and put this in a list of bullet points as to why she wasn't entitled to a refund (though, like I say, I would provide one even though I think it's clear I shouldn't have to).

Many, many more emails from her later  (I must have had 25 by now) she finally did get ebay involved - who promptly (in less than 10 minutes judging by the gap in the emails) found in her favour. I think they just read the 'not as described' and that was it. Failed to read any of my points.

So now I have to wait and see if she does return it - if she does I have to pay the postage. I'm hoping she won't be able to get postage for it but given how frankly appalling this experience has been to date I'm not counting on it. In the meantime the payment for the sofa is on hold in my Paypal account because, of course, ebay control that.

Now I have a message that reads

"eBay Customer Service has placed the case on hold until Dec. 27 to allow time to provide additional documentation."

I don't know who is meant ot be providing what? What can I say / provide that's not already been said?! Would ebay even read it?

In despair - on top of all the other Tier 4 misery.

Any thoughts / commiseration welcome.

[burnerbee75]

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" />

Thank you for the suggestion, and I don't want this to sound snippy, but how do I contact them? An actual human I mean? The case is they say in hold until 27 Dec (awaiting 'evidence' - though I don't know what that could be or who is meant to provide it or how) and I see no methods of how to contact them. Hence my frustration.  

[m25jet]

Fair enough - perhaps I should have elaborated on that earlier so as to avoid you having to re-post with a second question. eBay certainly don't make it easy to find the necessary information on this site and they constantly seem to be changing things, but at the time of posting this response these are the steps you'll need to take:

First of all click on the "Help & Contact" link shown at both the top and the bottom of this page. A new page will load up. Scroll down until you see the "Selling" box. Click on that option and another new page will load up. Scroll down to the "Seller Performance" section and click on the "Appeal A Defect" option.

Once you have clicked on the "Appeal A Defect" option scroll right down to the bottom of the page. You can either appeal the defect online by clicking on the "Appeal A Defect" option next to an envelope icon, but to get through to a person instead click on the option below that on the left side of the page that says "Have Us Call You."

If you use the option that says "Have Us Call You" early on in the morning, from 8:00am onwards, somebody from eBay ought to call you back within a few minutes and you can then argue your case as to why you feel that the original decision ought to be overturned. If you win the appeal then your funds will be reinstated and you won't have to put up with a defect on your account in relation to this transaction.

[burnerbee75]

THANK YOU!! Did as you suggested, they rang me back (within 10 seconds), and it's sorted. The guy I spoke to 'thanked me' for calling because 'the system' does indeed not detect when a courier has been arranged, so us poor sellers who don't realise that have to go through all this to schlep before someone - like you - tells them to just call them! They'll release my funds, prevent her giving me negative feedback and tell her to get lost (well, maybe not quite). The relief is palpable - it's not so much the money (we're talking £170 before paypal and ebay get their hefty cut), it's just ending this painful process. So thank you again and I hope your Christmas is as good as the situation allows.

[m25jet]

Thanks for the update. I-m glad to hear that you managed to get it all sorted - it's good to hear that eBay actually did something right for once and made the correct decision once you appealed the matter. Their system's a bit rubbish though, to be honest - they ought to have a system in place whereby the buyer and seller can both put their case forward to eBay so that both sides of the story can be considered and a decision made at that point, rather than eBay only deciding in the buyer's favour to start with, rightly or wrongly, and then having to reverse the original decision at a later date when a seller calls them back to appeal the decision, having managed to prove to eBay that they screwed up when they made their original decision.

Have a good a Christmas as is possible during the current situation, and hopefully next year will turn out to be much better for you than this year has.

[red_magpie]

I'm afraid this is yet another example of eBay not even understanding its own rules!

You are 100% correct that eBay was incorrect to find in the buyer's favour. The only question now is how you address this.

As the case is now on hold, hopefully they will discover their own mistake. If they don't, and there is an option to appeal the case, appeal it.

Failing this, you can try phoning them, but this would probably be a waste fo time - you can't rely on assurances that eBay gives over the phone.

My advice would be to write by recorded delivery to their HQ in London, the address is near the top of the user agreement.

I agree absolutely that if all else fails you should consider leagl action, possibly through the  Courts and Tribunals internet-based money claim service. See: https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome.

Be aware that one small technicality mis that we have all agreed in the user agreement to accept eBay's decisions. However, I can't see even eBay successfully arguing that they can reach decisions that completely contradict their own policies, and which form a part of their user agreement.

Good luck, and I hope you persevere with this. Your experience illustrates what a disgrace it is that eBay is unregulated, with users having no right of appeal to any independent authority. You shouldn't have to jump through all of these hurdles when they've made an obvious mistake.

[burnerbee75]

Thank you RM - I will certainly appeal if it does get to that and phone, email and take legal action if necessary. Many thanks for your support and for taking the time to contact me, it is appreciated.

[john1297576]

You could try talking to ebay, but will need to speak to someone who understand their own rules. Explain that buyer organised the Courier and therefor it is not covered by the Money Back Guarantee.

Ebay makes rules but forgets to enforce them and CS staff haven't a clue .

[arkwebus]

"Take eBay to the small claims!"   Their lawyers will be sharpening their quills!   The problem is that it is not really a "money claim" as the whole system is the challenge. We have never - I think - heard of a successful case against eBay.   Apart from anything else they are based in ? Luxemburg so where will the case be founded?

Just appeal to eBay and try to get them to understand that it is not covered.  I think that you are right that they see "not as described" and consider nothing else.  Motors are not covered but we heard of a buyer who bought a vehicle with an "oil lick" [sic] being told that it was covered.  

There is a theory that if you contact eBay at 800am they may call you from Dublin where we share a common language. The CS otherwise is based in Philippines.

@burnerbee75 

[burnerbee75]

I'll lend them my sharpener! Ebay have mucked up and a judge will, I believe, see that. I will certainly appeal. Thank you for taking the time to respond, appreciated.

[m25jet]

If eBay do decide in the buyer's favour then I think you should definitely appeal the decision, as you may well be able to get the original decision overturned once you can get to speak to a person, although this is pretty much reliant on you being fortunate enough to get through to an eBay representative with an ounce of sense who will look into the case properly.

If the case goes against you then when you appeal the decision make sure that you point out to the eBay representative that the buyer organised her own courier without checking that you were OK with this first of all.  Make sure that you point out that this was not an option offered in the listing, and therefore the buyer has voided her rights to protection via the eBay Money Back Guarantee by getting a third party involved to collect the item instead of coming to inspect it herself so that she could satisfy herself with the overall condition of the item before making a decision as to whether to go ahead with the sale or pull out at that point.  If you really argue your case strongly and you are lucky enough to get through to an eBay representative with an ounce of sense then it should be possible to get the original decision overturned, in which case the funds will be unfrozen and you will be allowed to keep the money from the transaction, as eBay would reverse the original decision and decide the appeal in your favour.  However, you need to really draw attention to the fact that you didn't state in your listing that you would allow collection via courier, as well as the fact that the buyer arranged this without your consent.  A buyer should not be entitled to a total refund if he/she has done something which would void his/her protection with the eBay Money Back Guarantee, so by pointing this out quite clearly to the eBay representative you should stand a decent chance of getting the original decision overturned.

Finally, if you have not already done so, add the buyer's User ID to your Blocked Bidders List.  If you are unfamiliar with how to do so click on this link https://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/ebay/isapi.dll?bidderblocklogin and add the buyer's User ID to the white box that appears on the screen.  Once you have done that click on the Submit button beneath the box and the buyer in question will not be able to purchase anything else from you in the future and cause you any further aggravation.

[plpmr]

Your buyer is not covered by buyer protection -

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee?id=4...

Not covered

• Collection items damaged during shipment when shipment arranged by the buyer

• Items collected by a third party on behalf of the buyer

• Items not collected by the buyer

[burnerbee75]

Thanks - I know and have stated this in my communcations with the buyer (which I assumed ebay would read) but it's been ignored.

[roger_roger_over_and_nowt]

The disputes system is automated so no human will get to look at the details.

You made the mistake of letting a buyer take control of the item which you stated was for collection only.You shoud have just cancelled the sale and appealed any bad feedback stating that the buyer was asking for someting not offered in the listing,i.e. delivery.

It was all downhill from there although i cannot guess as to what will happen now.I suspect ebay will refund her in full without return and you will get the chacnce to appeal,for what it's worth.

[burnerbee75]

So the sofa comes back - damaged (she's left it outside), I lose the money she paid for it and I have to pay for the courier? If that happens then I'll take ebay to small claims. But thanks for taking the time to reply - I'm just so angry with the situation (and believe me, I have many other things to worry about!).