The Death of Auctions?

[ett1954]

Has anyone seen this gem to come soon in the summer update to affect auctions (my bold italics):

Reducing unpaid items

Placing a bid

Additionally, buyers on select auctions will be required to set up a preferred payment method and postal address before they can place a bid. After winning an auction, they’ll have one hour to adjust their order or payment details, otherwise we’ll automatically process their order using their preferred payment method. No action is required from the seller.

These changes will help to improve the auction process on eBay by providing buyers with the ability to decide how they want to pay, whilst also ensuring that sellers receive payment for their sales. The goal is to foster a more efficient and dependable experience for the entire eBay community.

From FAQs:

No changes are needed with how you set up your listings. You should expect to see fewer unpaid items on items sold through auctions as we test and launch changes.

You can still combine multiple purchases from the same buyer in a single shipment, but please be aware that a buyer may be automatically charged for postage costs for each individual item when payments are processed.

As a buyer, you may be prompted to provide a payment method and select a postal address prior to placing a bid on an auction. You'll have the ability to edit these details before the auction ends. If you win the auction, you'll be given a one hour period to make any changes. If no changes are made, we’ll automatically charge your default payment method. 

---------------------

There is no opt out mentioned for this 'feature'; without one it will be the end of auctions on eBay for me.  A few things immediately spring to mind.  I don't have problems with non-payers but I do have regular, long-standing buyers of 8 years or more who bid on items spanning across 10 days or even longer.  Combining multiple wins into one order is a necessity; especially with lower value items.

Many of my buyers are international and on a completely different time zone - what they win can determine how and where they want it sent (forwarding agents, etc.)  How do they respond in an hour if an auction is finishing at 3 am for them, or if they are at work, travelling, etc.

I had thought eBay had learnt their lesson from the debacle of immediate payments on Buy it Now listings.  My acceptance level from offers sent is now virtually nil.  What I do foresee is an increase in 'remorse' returns for business sellers running auctions in some sectors.  Sure we will see a lot less non-payers ..... this will be in conjunction with a lot less sales.

One final question for eBay - where is this supposed feedback you received stating sellers want this ........ nobody has asked me.  Has anyone on these boards been asked?  Please publish this data along with the agency you commissioned to carry out the research.

[vinylscot]

Although your post doesn't really merit the courtesy of a response, I have a couple of moments free, so, point by point.

Making a refund is not complicated FOR ME. However, many buyers won't bid/pay on the promise of a refund, if they don't know me. They assume (logically, but wrongly) that eBay would have a sensible mechanism in place to deal with multiple payments. It seems unprofessional that they would not.

Second point - you have misunderstood. Again, I can do it, but it is more involved than it should be, and again, buyers assume eBay would have better systems in place.

I didn't say the new system would NOT cut down on NPBs. I stated that it was an unnecessary change, as NPBs are really not much of a problem, and that it would present more problems in the form of an increase in SNADs.

I have never mentioned three weeks, but if a seller is happy to let purchases accrue over three weeks, then why should they not be able to do so?

Of course combined postage is a form of discount. This ludicrous change (as portrayed now) does not allow for combined postage, again overcomplicating things by introducing, quite unnecessarily, the need for refunds of overpayments.

SOME sellers may be willing to bundle up auction items, and list as a BIN. However, once again, that's another load of unnecessary faff; it's also unfair on watchers and other potential buyers. I believe it is unprofessional to end auctions early. It also negates the chance of an unexpected large sale - two bidders attempting to outdo each other right up to the last minute. 

Regarding your final childish comment, I understand you mean well, but, in my opinion, you have completely (probably wilfully) misunderstood almost every aspect of this entire issue.

[pg_kicks]

This is pretty easily solved by phoning your bank and telling them to put eBay or whomever the actually company if that takes the funds on the preapproved list. I used to work for a store that done raffles for trainers, the amount of people complaining that their bank blocked for fraud was stupid when all they needed to do was a 5 minute phone call.

marco@ebay 

Crazy thought Marco but as we are all told every single phone call that our loyalty is thanked, eBay could maybe ask its customers (ie sellers) opinions on pretty big changes to the site before they actually happen? It would solve so much time being wasted on broken/pointless updates that make the site harder to use or just are not needed? 

Thanks for passing on this information that will never get to senior managers though. (I know thats not your fault but thats eBay)

[the_book_seekers]

It would be pointless to make me a guinea pig for this policy as there needs to be sales for any kind of evaluation, and that's not happening at the moment. 

It's a further erosion of seller choice on how we operate.  Personally I thought the present system was enough and would prefer an opt out.

ebay may make it the buyer's responsibility to utilise the hour after auction end to make changes, but many will expect the seller to sort out any problems that arise. 

Again a policy caused by a minority that effects the majority.  

[bzmotman]

It may be fine for you selling 1 BIN but a lot of us make multiple sales over days/weeks to combine postage for regular reliable buyers eg yesterday I sent 22 sales of BIN & auction sales made over a 2 week period to Germany. The buyer wants tracked postage & combining the items makes it cost effective for him.

Sure I will still be able to do it on the new system if he will pay up front & rely on me to refund him - plenty of non-productive work for me there doing 20 refunds. Also you cannot load a tracked reference against more than 1 separate buy so I will loose protection if the letter goes missing.

Where is the clarity on what "selected auctions" mean? I sell items that go for a couple of pounds up to a couple of hundred - will some of my auctions be included but not others?

I repeat It may be fine for a seller who sells 1 BIN at a time but its not for the many sellers who make multiple sales.

[dch2112011]

---

@vinylscot wrote:

Although your post doesn't really merit the courtesy of a response, I have a couple of moments free, so, point by point.   

Now you seem to be trying to substantiate your comments  which is confusing so to remind you of what you wrote compare the two comments you made point by point.

I of course assumed in line with your comment below that you were writing about your own experiance not that of hypothetical others !

You said - I think your comment no 42, illustrated one of your own points. You are only thinking about your own position

You originally made statements designed to be accepted as facts of authority over what was written.

You now try and substantiate these statements with contradiction and explanation hence the confusion 

Making a refund is not complicated FOR ME. However, many buyers won't bid/pay on the promise of a refund, if they don't know me. They assume (logically, but wrongly) that eBay would have a sensible mechanism in place to deal with multiple payments. It seems unprofessional that they would not.

You wrote - This isn't about discounts; it's about practical things like combined postage, over-complicated invoicing/refunding, and non paying bidders. 

Second point - you have misunderstood. Again, I can do it, but it is more involved than it should be, and again, buyers assume eBay would have better systems in place.

You wrote - This isn't about discounts; it's about practical things like combined postage, over-complicated invoicing/refunding, and non paying bidders.

I didn't say the new system would NOT cut down on NPBs. I stated that it was an unnecessary change, as NPBs are really not much of a problem, and that it would present more problems in the form of an increase in SNADs.

You wrote - This isn't about discounts; it's about practical things like combined postage, over-complicated invoicing/refunding, and non paying bidders.

I have never mentioned three weeks, but if a seller is happy to let purchases accrue over three weeks, then why should they not be able to do so?

NEVER implied you did say three weeks nor did I say noone should be able to wait three weeks - I did question whether that was realistic just to offer a discount - as it had been used as an example in this thread 

You wrote  - Most sellers who use auctions are only too happy to "wait and see", and have no idea whether any individual buyer may intend to bid on other listings.

Of course combined postage is a form of discount. This ludicrous change (as portrayed now) does not allow for combined postage, again overcomplicating things by introducing, quite unnecessarily, the need for refunds of overpayments.

You wrote - This isn't about discounts; it's about practical things like combined postage, over-complicated invoicing/refunding, and non paying bidders.

SOME sellers may be willing to bundle up auction items, and list as a BIN. However, once again, that's another load of unnecessary faff; it's also unfair on watchers and other potential buyers. I believe it is unprofessional to end auctions early. It also negates the chance of an unexpected large sale - two bidders attempting to outdo each other right up to the last minute. 

You wrote - Sellers runing auctions aren't going to bundle up items into a BIN.

Regarding your final childish comment, I understand you mean well, but, in my opinion, you have completely (probably wilfully) misunderstood almost every aspect of this entire issue.

I assume that this comment is aimed at yourself based on your final comment but hey you are entitled to an opinion - just a shame you do not believe anyone else is - wiseacre was the word  ? 

You wrote - It really makes no difference to you if you don't run auction listings, so why not leave the discussion to those who do, and who have more relevant opinions. 

[bzmotman]

Obviously you don't use auctions. Very many times the bids come in at the last second. Other posters have mentioned using snipe programmes - a Google search will explain tehm.

As I don't end auctions early I am not 100% sure but I believe it will adversely affect your Ebay standing.

[dch2112011]

That's great for you but such a loyal buyer will understand and maybe you can personalise the service to him - I am sure you will find a way to trade with him.

As for how it will work in reality  - no one really knows -  hopefully it will be designed to allow what you want to do but most things are rolled out using the first 'volunteers' as guinea pigs and then it is tweaked to get it right 

To be fair we stopped using auctions a while back because of the problems with non or late payers, occasional false returns and multiple requests for combined postage which was a real problem after the event with the automated postal system we use.

 We do have many repeat buyers who will buy multiple items and yes we send them in one package and yes we use the same tracking number  which has never been a problem - we do offer free postage so do not have to retrospectively discount, although you could do this once rather than multiple times.

With regular buyers who buy multiple items who we have got to know and understand  they send a list vi ebay messaging and we give them one price and make a listing especially for them which they buy and we ship - takes a couple of minutes  message the item number and it is paid in seconds.

If you know and trust your premium customers - and they trust you - you have not got to be so wary of each other - I know many will disagree - what if etc 

[ett1954]

"We do have many repeat buyers who will buy multiple items and yes we send them in one package and yes we use the same tracking number  which has never been a problem - we do offer free postage so do not have to retrospectively discount, although you could do this once rather than multiple times."

The trust issue is not a major problem with regular buyers, nor is the refunding on each order insurmountable, just an unnecessary, time-wasting, laborious exercise.  What is a major issue is dealing with this on international sales, especially where eBay have collected the due taxes.

An example; if I sell six items to a buyer in Germany for example over a couple of days or any period longer than an hour between and he is forced to pay each individually then these orders come through immediately to my Royal Mail account as they are paid - six separate orders.  The tax is paid and recorded into the Royal Mail account in order to generate the customs label (CN22).  These six items cannot be consolidated into one order for posting whilst at the same time complying with custom regulations.  The result is one of two scenarios, stopped at customs and returned because the IOSS data is not accurate with the contents, or the buyer is issued with a demand to pay the tax again.  A recipe for disaster for both seller and buyer.  The only way to ensure there would be no problems would be to send each order separately if I cannot present the buyer with a combined invoice before payment.

This is one way to ensure that the trust which currently exists with my international buyers is quickly eroded and they account for more than 50% of my eBay sales.

If you have a solution for this concerning international sales I would be interested to hear it.

[dch2112011]

Not sure what your point is  other than you have misunderstood what has been written or quite how many items we have sold but hey  not an issue.

Of course bids can come in right up to the final second and believe it or not yes I do understand snipe programs but thanks for trying to educate me. 

you can end any listing early without penalty when there are no bids on it - with bids you may have to pay fees depending on how many bids, reserve price etc 

What I was suggesting was if a buyer was to win an auction and message you asking for you to combine postage on the item won plus several other items that he was waiting to bid on  -

that as a seller it might be more advantageous to agree a price - list them as a package BIN for the buyer - get paid and end the auctions (not necessarily in that order)

This may be better than waiting for auctions to end with no bid or waiting for payment from the buyer hoping to win more items only to find they either get outbid or don't bid.

This is personal choice you either wait it out hoping for high bids and take the risk - or grab the bird in the hand -

Noone is telling you what to do but in context with the comments that the new system will be no good because sellers have trusted buyers who will bid over a three week period  and then the seller discounts the price - my thought was that if you had a trusted buyer and they messaged you with what they were bidding on - you may be able to do a deal, complete the sale and avoid the new system.

But apparently you and several others don't like that idea but that is ok - it's out there for consideration - you can ignore it - you can comment on it 

[dch2112011]

Are you using click and drop ? can you not automatically group orders from the same buyer into one prior to printing labels, I am sure that's how we do it with UK customers - show my ignorance now I have to ask the very bright lady who looks after click and drop when I see her tomorrow ?

Otherwise it will be a grim manual job starting with disabling the postage rate  which is ok once a day maybe but 50% from auction - that is potentially a real horror 

[dch2112011]

Now got it - yes the ebay intermediary with customs -  IOSS - unfortunately we use EORI  which is a different system - one stop shop is a simplified version

So CN22 is no problem for all items

IOSS number is the same

I take it ebay fill in the electronic customs form or is it click and drop ?  If click and drop it should be possible to get it all on one customs form otherwise 6 x commercial invoices with the package for customs

- it just is how to tie each invoice or item into each custom form if six have been produced - Do you see a copy of the customs form ?

[dch2112011]

This needs checking but from what I can find you may have a big problem if the new system does not allow you to combine seperate orders into one order prior to payment 

---

@dch2112011 wrote:

Now got it - yes the ebay intermediary with customs -  IOSS - unfortunately we use EORI  which is a different system - one stop shop is a simplified version

So CN22 is no problem for all items

IOSS number is the same

I take it ebay fill in the electronic customs form or is it click and drop ?  If click and drop it should be possible to get it all on one customs form otherwise 6 x commercial invoices with the package for customs

- it just is how to tie each invoice or item into each custom form if six have been produced - Do you see a copy of the customs form ?

---

Please be aware that the IOSS scheme prohibits the merging or splitting of orders for the purposes of shipping. If your intended use is for shipments to the EU where the order is shipped under the IOSS scheme, you will be unable to merge or split orders for shipping

[ett1954]

For UK orders it is possible to create one label by simply deleting all but one order and create a postage for the total weight / size.

Royal Mail have said there is no way to merge multiple orders internationally and retain the correct customs data; I believe they receive the customs data from eBay.  Also of course after payment of multiple individual items the buyer has paid the full amount of tax on the total paid before any chance of a refund.  Even if eBay refunded the buyer the excess tax they paid the tax showing on the customs document would be inconsistent with the tax amount that should have been paid.

I can imagine this is going to kill orders with GSP if a buyer has to pay each item separately as they can't combine shipment from individual orders unless they have been paid via a combined invoice.

Basically eBay seem to have created a half-ar**d system that is not fit for purpose by introducing a feature that doesn't cater for combining invoices, rather than tackling non-payers directly.  eBay profess to being a leading global tech company - what a joke.  Then again eBay have never made combining invoices easy, especially on international sales; it's not difficult to see why with the fees the high international postage rates must generate.

[ett1954]

Yes, the disallowment of merging individual orders makes sense and is consistent with what Royal Mail have confirmed.  This is why it is important to have a combined invoice before payment which clearly identifies the individual components of the order on the customs data - this is then classed as one order, with the provision that it falls below the maximum value for the IOSS scheme.

Thanks for the information of the last few posts - much appreciated.

[nigel_paul_wright7557]

Ebay look for ways to make more money and this is just another one which they havent thought through.

I cant remember the last time I got a none performing buyer.

[dch2112011]

This might help - it looks as though you should be able to ship in one consignment  - CN22 must be correct - check this info is up to date before you accept it completely  warning there is a member  post on click and drop where they claim you cannot merge  orders under ioss  

This is taken from a clearing house 

The IOSS limit of 150 euros applies to each individual consignment of goods
As a rule, each individual package is deemed to be a consignment of goods to which the IOSS upper limit of 150 euros applies. When delivering several items, a single delivery is deemed to exist if,

several items are delivered together in one package,
the delivery is made based on a single contract of carriage,
the dispatch of all items is made by the same consignor and to the same consignee.
A single consignment is also accepted if

the same person has ordered several items,
but are delivered in one package.
On the other hand, separate consignments are to be assumed if

the same consignor sends several items to the same consignee,
but are ordered and delivered separately.
A separate delivery is also deemed to exist if,

although the consignor and consignee of several items are identical
reach the courier service provider at the destination on the same day, but in separate packages.

[joy_spnfan]

If they do introduce this new system, and assuming that I have understood it correctly, neither myself or my partner will be able to use Ebay as this will mean that rather than use our cards that are attached to our PayPal accounts and pay through Paypal, we will have to store our card details on Ebay and neither of us are willing to do that. Amazon is the only company who have my card details stored as I trust them not to get hacked/have a data breach, but I do not have the same level of confidence in Ebay.

We always snipe in the last few seconds and pay immediately and I hate it that the non-payers have created this situation. 

[papso22]

The only time I have ever been hacked was through my Amazon account and a credit card that was only used on Amazon.

[a45heaven]

Maybe - but ebay has been hacked in the past which culminated in the disappearance of the Communication Director, after his public apology.

Since then who knows, there are certainly way over the top of site problems which may or may not be hack related, its not like ebay communicate to the membership, unless its a dictate.

[kath3735_wxmjn]

of course i do which is why, as i have already said, is that i block the bidder.  Trouble is that i am not convinced that e bay actually do block some of these serial non bidders.  The other point is that i do my bit by blocking them but if they then keep on doing it to say person a,b,c etc and they do not then nothing happens.  Whereas if e bay had something in place to automatically block a buyer who say has six non payments then it would not matter if other sellers did not actually activly block them.   To be honest it was only coming on these boards when i first started selling that i actually got to know a lot of things about selling and blocking bidders was one of them.  E Bay do not have the clearest information.