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Yes this is a complaint post!

 

I am jumping on the various HMRC business account posts. Maybe it will be helpful to someone. 

 

I get tired of seeing people blindly supporting eBay, just as I get tired of dealing with the platform itself. It's disheartening to see so many receiving the dreaded message demanding an upgrade to a business account for tax purposes and then scrambling for advice on how to handle it.

 

Let them seek advice, even if they haven't done everything perfectly. I know it may seem like I'm using the what-about-ism technique, but it's necessary in this situation. These individuals are not the ones who asked for a bailout like the banking industry. They don't have connections in high places of government or legal counsel. Often, they are just struggling to make ends meet and trying to make a little extra money by selling things online.

We don't have to justify their actions, but it's important to understand where they're coming from. For many people, this money isn't going towards buying a private island or evading taxes. It's simply helping them survive. Maybe they didn't know they needed to register, or maybe they did but couldn't afford to do it officially, or maybe the amount was small and they had bills and debt to pay off. This doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make it entirely wrong either. When the threshold for reporting income is £1750 per year to HMRC, that seems very unfair. It may be within the bounds of legality, but it certainly isn't ethical.

 

Are we promoting entrepreneurship or encouraging people to remain in traditional jobs? Let me rephrase that, and the critics will jump on it: for most individuals, it's not feasible to turn a small profit into a legitimate business. With expenses like overhead costs, selling fees, postage, dealing with buyer remorse and returns (whether legitimate or not), not to mention taxes taking a quarter of their earnings! The list goes on and on. I know some might say - if you can't afford it, don't do business, right? So here's alternative B: they work for large corporations who have mastered the art of evading taxes and keeping money out of the hands of everyday people. These companies find clever ways to increase profits for shareholders, while also indulging in luxuries like yachts, second and third homes, and offshore accounts. Sounds like I'm trying to balance the scales here? I couldn’t begin to balance those scales. The scale is too unfathomable for us lay people. Soon there are no small businesses, only corporate entities with the power to afford a business. I see posts so often with people saying 'if you can't afford your business, you shouldn't be in business'. I disagree wholeheartedly because I never want to see the day where only those who can afford, are able. That isn't a good power structure. It won't be sustainable. It would be frightening as to how it would sustain itself.

So yes, ethically speaking, I align with those individuals who make £5000 on eBay without reporting it because it supports the idea of entrepreneurship. And yes, it helps people who are usually making small salaries and paying taxes with a little bit of cushion to pay higher food, utilities, cost of living expenses that have exceeded, by far, any wage increases in decades. And shame on HMRC for going after small money when there are bigger fish out there scamming us regularly and getting away with it. It's time to step up and speak out about these issues.

 

eBay should have informed their sellers much earlier, giving them time to make informed decisions about their business's future. Some sellers may have seen the numbers and realized they couldn't make it work, choosing to walk away from the platform altogether. Others might have adjusted their selling practices to stay below the taxable income threshold, if they had known what that threshold was. Regardless of whether or not eBay is required to give advance notice, allowing people to do right by themselves and HMRC should be the priority. Unfortunately, it seems that eBay's tactic was to catch people off guard. However, for many sellers, this was a matter of survival, and eBay could have chosen a different path that would still hold people accountable without putting them in financial jeopardy.

 

What choices do you have? The HMRC allows regular individuals to take five years to establish and maintain a successful business. How many celebrity children are given a head start with established networks, financial backing, and guidance? How many wealthy families pass down these same opportunities to their children? I'm not here to criticize them, but rather to showcase the fact that most people need assistance. Most people deserve a chance. Why target those who are also seeking the same opportunities? Let everyone have a chance to climb up that ladder.

 

eBay could provide people with a notification of this change. Why? It is possible that some people may not be aware of the threshold, and abruptly find themselves facing significant challenges they cannot afford to handle. It doesn't matter if they have made mistakes in the past; it does not mean they are incapable of making things right now. But penalising them may destroy them financially. Even Trump gave people forewarning and a chance to leave the country before he takes office. It would have been possible for eBay, with all of their resources and influence, to implement a policy that allows individuals the opportunity to make things right, whether they were aware or not.

Increase the threshold so that people starting out can survive. Increase the threshold so that people's aim of paying off debt and bills can actually achieve that goal.

Give anonymous support to guide people. Getting people to the right place should surely be the priority goal here. Issuing fines to people who are financially struggling seems extremely punitive and unnecessary as a first step.

 

Both parties could have agreed to a temporary halt in this situation, a moment of reconciliation with both the laws and the legal system. We will address this issue. If your business is not able to sustain itself, we suggest lowering your revenue below the threshold or officially registering as a business. We will provide a reasonable period of time for you to comply with the law, like a honeymoon, to organize your affairs. For small entrepreneurs, why punish them into bankruptcy? These are individuals who may not have the means to withstand such penalties. This is not an opportunity for corporate bail outs; it's simply allowing people the chance to correct their mistakes first.

 

As an eBay seller, ask yourself if you ever wish you had the opportunity that someone else has. What is it that makes you angry? Is it because you feel like someone else has a chance that you didn't get? Instead of listing why they shouldn't have the opportunity, question why you didn't and why the next person shouldn't have it as well. If you had the chance to have 5 years to build, would you have liked it? If you got caught out on eBay for something - you knew or didn't know (and please no one here is perfect. We all live in glasshouses here. How would you want it to be handled? Would you want grace? Understanding? - I know the answer, even if you don't want to state it.)

 

I stand with the sellers who are experiencing fear, frustration, and anger towards a system that targets those who are already struggling with limited support and resources. I get it, no one has sympathy for people who haven't obeyed. There's a long list of those and personally,  I feel less aggrieved at small sellers on eBay trying to rebalance what no government or corporate has any incentive to look into. eBay and HMRC should be ashamed of themselves.

On a side note, I have a deep appreciation for language. It plays a crucial role in shaping our opinions. They refer to it as the 'side hustle tax'. Are there no other ways to phrase this? Why just 'side hustle'? It seems to imply that these individuals are conning people out of their money. Maybe we can use 'finding ways to make ends meet' instead? After all, they are most likely targeting people like your struggling neighbour who is barely able to pay their electric bill. That doesn't quite fit with the connotation of hustling. Personally, I prefer 'people trying to make ends meet', and if we want to be more cynical, why not go with something like 'taxing those who are unable to defend themselves' or 'selectively taxing' is more politic? But no, we chose a phrase that paints an unseemly image and prevents many from recognizing this as an issue because who wants to support hustlers? But in reality, they are simply hardworking individuals using their hard work and ingenuity to make ends meet in a society where wages and cost of living don’t seem to find a meeting place. And we encourage vilifying through loaded terminology to distance ourselves from those we have most in common with.  And we don't vilify a situation that is far more invidious because we believe we identify with it because of laws someone else made because we like to see ourselves as ethical. I see myself as ethical but I align elsewhere because legal and ethical aren't always bedfellows.

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I struggle to understand the view of "I stand by law-breakers because some of them are poor, all of them are hard-working, and what about the rich crooks, eh?".

 

I am a simple-minded soul, and I wonder if you would also stand by the right of individuals to:

- set up an unregistered food stall, ignoring all hygiene regulations, refusing to pay business rates or VAT, and paying their staff in cash.

- work full-time while claiming benefits for being too ill to work.

- ignore regulations on the sale of drugs, weapons, baby toys etc.

 

You seem to draw a clear and rather simplistic distinction between:

- GOODIES: poor people struggling to earn a living, who should be allowed to break any law that proves inconvenient for them, because honesty, taxes and regulations shouldn't apply to businesses owned by working-class people.

and

- BADDIES: lazy people who own businesses and are probably breaking the law anyway, and even if they aren't, they deserve to be punished.

 

You don't seem to consider other groups of people, such as honest business sellers who are being driven to bankruptcy by unfair competition from your group of goodies who refuse to pay taxes or obey any laws they find inconvenient.

 

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Cesario, the Count's gentleman
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well I am pretty sure that those people that you have mentioned still dont owe the 40 billion in unpaid taxes that the HMRC havent been able to get people to pay!

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Non sequitur.

 

This what-about-ism sounds like a teenager arguing: "You can't blame me for pickpocketing old Doris, because she only had a fiver on her - and when Johnny-at-the-Red-Lion got fined £700 for serving 15-year-olds, he never paid his fine, so there!   £700 is more than £5, and I'd spent my pocket money, so I'm one of the Deserving Poor - besides, old Doris never saw me, she probably thought she'd dropped it.  Anyway, she's got a whole big house to herself and I've got a tiny little bedroom, so she's Rich and Privileged.  The law should protect ordinary hard-working poor people like me."

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Cesario, the Count's gentleman
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@vintagevilarosa wrote:

well I am pretty sure that those people that you have mentioned still dont owe the 40 billion in unpaid taxes that the HMRC havent been able to get people to pay!


You are in Portugal, are you a tax exile?

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It's not a problem if sellers were getting the sales from the public and listings were fully visible to all without the use of affiliate marketing! Multiple offers questions bids... 

 

Every seller expects a fair platform like ebay promote, got something to sell? We have millions of buyers!

 

 

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got something to sell? We have millions of buyers!

 

They're in hiding at the moment...

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In the past year I have sold various items totalling around £757 all of these items are what I have accumulated over the years and no longer need and I have sold a few sets of summer tyres from my vehicles.

Yet eBay insist on me opening a Business Account.... why would I? After having an account since 2007 selling old clothes, children's bikes, household furniture, chairs, car parts no longer needed all of which are used items why the sudden change?

 

 

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Perhaps it is best to just close the account altogether as there are better selling platforms, one persons junk is another person's treasure! Items discarded are always worth something to someone!

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@rode-mars wrote:

Perhaps it is best to just close the account altogether as there are better selling platforms, one persons junk is another person's treasure! Items discarded are always worth something to someone!


It may be best to close the account if you don't want to upgrade to a business account or just use the account for selling.  That's entirely your affair, obviously.

 

I'm sorry you're not getting much sympathy, but honestly, I expect what made eBay think you might not be selling your old household stuff, wasn't so much the tyres (most people sell car spares now and again), but the office furniture.   

 

Obviously, it's entirely up to you if you prefer to fill your home with office furniture rather than the more standard stuff, and you're perfectly entitled to sell it when you've finished with it.  But unfortunately, selling office furniture may have triggered the warning. 

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Cesario, the Count's gentleman
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I think the op is looking elsewhere to blame other in this case society rather than looking at their own actions.

 

Nobody asks business to register on a private account, nobody asks hobbyists to sell on a private account.

But most long standing members will give correct advice that their activity is a business.

 

One very recently they may not realise that what they do is a business to them its just a hobby.

It's been pointed out they took it quite well.

 

It's those that ignore the advice that are the main problem.

But if you buy/make just one listing with the intention of selling it that's a business.

Even if you just buy a truck load add a few to a collection then sell the spares that is a business.

 

A very quick google search bring up this page its marc setting up in business and the activity it involves.

so if you don't believe me fine but you must believe HMRC and if you meet any of the requirements you must have the correct account on eBay

Working for yourself - GOV.UK

.

 

 

 

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