Whatever Next

[fallen-archie]

Has anyone else noticed the surge in demand to see monuments removed, the likes of Admiral Nelson for his attitude to slavery, it would appear that many of our revered patriots are to be labelled as bigots for holding attitudes of the day which are no longer acceptable. The latest to fall foul of this is Maria Von Trapp who is portrayed differently on screen to reality, apparently she maintained order by the use of corporal punishment, in other words she used the cane, because of this the city fathers of Saltburg will not name a street after her, they do however rely heavily on the film version for tourism to the city. Where are we going with this? What right have we to stand judgment on those who lived so long ago under different rules and conceptions, Nelson was a great Admiral and we should celebrate that imho!

[cee-dee]

Whether slavery was right or wrong, it happened a long time ago. That type of slavery's over, done and finished with. Mind you, some of those with a chip on their shoulder still look at the situation as "You thrashed my granddad......."

How about the agitators spending as much (or more?) time on preventing modern day slavery? Little is heard about it until some court case or other gets splashed all over the headlines for a short time then nothing's heard of it until the next case.

As to Nelson, his column was errected due to his naval prowess, nothing to do with slavery so the agitators should find something more useful to beef about.

[jd.linklater]

This is a highly contentious issue that has being argued over for many years. A similar argument was raging last year over a statue of Cecil Rhodes at Oriel College, Oxford the argument being that his rampant Imperialist views are totally out of step with modern sensibilities.  Likewise in the US today certain people are clamouring for the removal or destruction of statues commemorating leading figures from the Confederate side of the American Civil War for upholding views on slavery that any right minded person today would find repugnant.

But removing statues does not change history, in my opinion these things should remain to remind us of past mistakes we've made in the way we used to treat our fellow man. All the events of our colonial past are rightfully recorded in history books, we can't obliterate or whitewash our past. We don't have to glorify these events but we can learn from them.

If we continue to remove evidence of our history are we acting any more rationally than ISIS who for the past decade have been doing their utmost to destroy any buildings or artefacts of religious significance that pre-date Islam?

[**bustysinclaire**]

I personally don't agree in erecting a statue of any human being, placing a person on a pedestal is elevating them to a higher position and making them greater than anyone else, we were all made equal. And of course it is a form of worship that I personally accept to be wrong.

I wouldn't though go round and destroy any that had already been placed in their set positions, it isn't my place to do that.

[fallen-archie]

Just out of interest busty, do you mean all statues or just those who have a political leaning. As an example how about the one of greyfriars bobby in Edinburgh or morecambe and wise in Morecambe?

[cee-dee]

We all start off equal, yes but some end up more equal than others!

[littleme61_6]

I wouldn't agree to any monuments/statues being removed that have been a part of many generations history. 

As even for Mother Teresa's monument, it means a lot for all the good with helping so many poor people in her lifetime.

Also thinking of Dame Vera Lynn for all the wonderful support she gave to the troops in the war. (marvellous age she is now too at 100)

I feel she would be well deserving of a Monument. 

Yet I feel the likes of say Fred Dibnah known as a steeplejack would be remembered by a lot of people, but to have the statue for him I feel is a bit too far going. That in my opinion is like giving all people who did well in their chosen job deserves a monument when they too pass away. 

Maybe I could have a statue made after my passing, for being such a quiet soul.  

[*devils.advocate*]

Well said.

On another note,

“Human nature will not change. In any future great national trial, compared with the men of this, we shall have as weak and as strong, as silly and as wise, as bad and as good. Let us therefore study the incidents in this as philosophy to learn wisdom from and none of them as wrongs to be avenged."

Abraham Lincoln (in the context of The American Civil War of 1861 to 1865)

A certain element of irony as most Americans always look to, and quote, Lincoln. I seem to remember they erected a statue to him?

And another note, religious statues. Visual difference between CofE, Catholicism & Protestantism - visual “statue” representation of Christ on the Cross and just the Cross? Where do you draw the line?

If you want to bury or hide “history”, it will happen again.

End of notes.

[j_uk643]

Must be a slow news day lol

I am shocked though to learn Julie Andrews didn't climb every mountain and defeat the Nazis with a smile and a song.

 Next someone will be telling me patriotic good King Richard the Lionheart wanted to sell England, 300 hundred Spartans weren't the only ones at Thermopylae,and didn't defeat the Persians,  and that Custer wasn't quite as heroic as popular myth would have it?

Such is the nature of history. Is nothing sacred?

It's illegal not only in Germany but certain parts of Europe to promote, use, propagate Nazi ideas and memorabilia.

Russia put it's statues of Lenin, Marx, etc  away and  renamed some of it's cities.Did they lose their history?? 

Are statues vital?, well clearly not it seems. When asked about Lee's statue, several far right protester's had no idea who he was, or what role he played, nor was there information provided to help them.

Both the Lee and Jackson's family are reported to have made a plea for their ancestors not to be hijacked by far right groups and have indicated a museum might be a better home for the statues.

Lee himself after the war was against such monuments as he feared they would foster division.

The statues were erected at local level, after reconstruction,during a period which has been called the 'jim crow' era essentially where America was segregated.They couldn't bring back slavery, so segregation was the next best option for some.You couldn't eat or drink except in designated areas,or take the bus except in certain seats and largely disenfranchised at the ballot box. That's symbolic to certain groups, and local Mayors etc, have been concerned these symbols may provoke similar confrontations to charlottesville

There are no Hitler High schools, or Goebbells academies, for those practising Judaism to have to live with.I think it would be offensive if there were.

You don't lose or make history through statues,but they can be symbols some would want to hijack. One of the best monuments to the Civil War and arguably Lee, can be found at arlington national Cemetery - Lee's former home

[valjo2472]

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@*devils.advocate* wrote:

Well said.

On another note,

“Human nature will not change. In any future great national trial, compared with the men of this, we shall have as weak and as strong, as silly and as wise, as bad and as good. Let us therefore study the incidents in this as philosophy to learn wisdom from and none of them as wrongs to be avenged."

Abraham Lincoln (in the context of The American Civil War of 1861 to 1865)

A certain element of irony as most Americans always look to, and quote, Lincoln. I seem to remember they erected a statue to him?

And another note, religious statues. Visual difference between CofE, Catholicism & Protestantism - visual “statue” representation of Christ on the Cross and just the Cross? Where do you draw the line?

If you want to bury or hide “history”, it will happen again.

End of notes.

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Well said Fallen Archie    >Alma

[*devils.advocate*]

ooooooo! my own personal stalker. I’m flattered. Thank you.

You’re completely wrong and I’m complimented by you. Feels good.

But to create another ID on the same day to kudos yourself - pathetic.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Without getting in too deep with where I get my opinions from.

Yes I personally read it as it would mean all statues.  I would however recognise any individuals good achievements but just wouldn't agree that a statue be erected in their honour.

[fallen-archie]

What about a portrait, I saw the one done by jack vettriano of Billy Connolly and the image banksy did ithought they were very moving as was the one of graham norton which hangs in the national gallery in Dublin, do you feel that might be more appropriate subject permitting of course?

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@fallen-archie wrote:
What about a portrait, I saw the one done by jack vettriano of Billy Connolly and the image banksy did ithought they were very moving as was the one of graham norton which hangs in the national gallery in Dublin, do you feel that might be more appropriate subject permitting of course?

---

I don't see a portrait of someone in quite the same way as a statue. 

So I don't see anything wrong in  painting a portrait of someone.  Thinking about it though I do think you have to look at the reasons behind the making of a statue and what it will be used for once finished.

If a portrait was placed in a position where many then go and worship it in some way then it is the act of worship that is not scriptural.

A matter of conscience maybe, the guidelines are given, so we have to decide for ourselves whether we agree or disagree.

Actually archie, your question is very thought provoking and one I shall look into more for my own clarification. Xx

[bankhaunter]

Suggesting that people worship statues etc, I think is going a bit far, I suspect the large majority of people ignore them or at best display a slight interest.

There seems to be a habit today of looking back on historical figures and judging them by today's standards, condemning them even though only a very small part of their life is not considered acceptable.

Had Nelson been alive a few years later, he may well have been in command of the West Africa Squadron.

Will we be left with only those who, after careful investigation, can be found pure in every way?  That should get rid of nearly all of them. 

As for a monument to Mother Theresa, no comment.

[bankhaunter]

An interesting additional point, Robert E Lee was against the idea of erecting statues to honour those who fought in the Civil War.

"I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered,"

[fallen-archie]

Meanwhile in Wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-mid-wales-41093074

You could not make it up

[cee-dee]

Narrow minded people!!!!!!

[fallen-archie]

Is it me or are people so precious that anything other than absolute respect is deemed to be racist. Can someone please tell me when a bit of fun free from ill intent became so bad?

[javikha_4]

To the Lincoln mention. There are numerous monuments including the large one in DC, as well as in his own home state, and at Mt Rushmore ( North by Northwest , far right ) not to mention his appearance on various currency.