18-01-2024 10:08 AM
Hi All.
I've received an email from ebay forcing me to switch to business account due to the volume of my recent sales. Customer service explained that I exceeded £1800 in one month, so they act in line with new HMRC regulations. The email is a bit threatening: "We need you to make these changes to your account within the next 21 days. If you don’t, your selling privileges may be blocked. This includes listings ended and loss of selling history."
However, As I'm not ready to go business and I consider my increased activity as temporary, Customer Service advised that if reduce my sales volume, I can stay private. Has any of you passed through this process?
Also, what happensto your existing promo listings if you switch to business? Are they allowed to continue on promo terms and with 'no returns accepted' until they sell or end?
Solved! Go to Solution.
26-01-2024 9:04 PM - edited 26-01-2024 9:09 PM
Okay, so let's do the numbers.
The difference between business sellers (B) and private sellers (P) on a 70% FVF promo. I sell trainers, so use this as example.
For trainers below £100:
B pays 11.9%+VAT fees, P pays 12.8%*0.3+VAT=3.84%+VAT
This works to around 10% of final price more in fees for B and this is how I calculate my profit.
Then you need to accommodate 30p insertion fee and returns. Assume average return rate of 10%, which will be well exaggerated (mine is ca 1-2% including all requests, not requests I accepted). You can choose 'buyer pays for return postage', so if 1 in 10 pairs gets returned, you need to accommodate £0.33 for each pair you sell (£3.29 Tracked48). Let's make it additional £1 for simplicity.
So if P sells trainers for £70, B must sell them for £78.
For trainers above £100:
B pays 7%+VAT fees, P pays 12.8%*0.3+VAT=3.84%+VAT
For trainers that cost £120, B will pay £10 in fees, P will pay £5.50 in fees.
Conclusions:
For trainers below £50 the difference is less than £5.
For trainers above £100 the difference is negligent.
Most ebay shops sell more expensive trainers, so they don't loose much.
For the most popular price range (ca £70-£80) that I sell, I'd need to charge £78-£88 instead from now on. Am I bothered? No, because the most shops have the same trainers listed for around £100 anyway. Just work out difference in profit margin yourself.
And finally, I also pay taxes. At Higher Rate, because I also do my main job.
26-01-2024 9:12 PM - edited 26-01-2024 9:13 PM
Just look up the post above to find out calculation how much private sellers gain because of FVF. I don't care about sympathy, as I've not got much of it from the beginning (with few exceptions). And I also pay taxes.
26-01-2024 9:37 PM
And if P sells trainers for £70 and B sells trainers for £78, who is more likely to get the sales from ebay's bargain hunting buyers? So let's say that P gets twice as many sales as B and consider that same figure for every item that B has listed. You'll then find that B's once viable legally trading business is now only selling a third of the volume that they were selling before P popped up with his illegally trading not-a-business business and undercut him with his seemingly never-ending supply of cheaper trainers.
Conclusions:
It doesn't take many illegal traders like P to seriously impact B's legally trading business to the point of collapse.
For every P who runs out of not-stock stock, there's another P ready to take his place.
B therefore faces a continuous and never-ending stream of unfair competition from P, P2, P3, P4 ad infinitum, all aided and abetted by ebay.
We will have to agree to disagree.
26-01-2024 10:23 PM
@sportex-uk wrote:
For the most popular price range (ca £70-£80) that I sell, I'd need to charge £78-£88 instead from now on. Am I bothered? No, because the most shops have the same trainers listed for around £100 anyway. Just work out difference in profit margin yourself.
At the risk of sounding like a bystander shouting 'fight, fight, fight' I would just like to point out that as a business seller you may not get a chance to charge £78-88; as with a 10% price hike vs. seller (P), ebay might not even make your listing 'visible'... well, unless you start paying PL fees... and then you're into a whole new ball game.
Whilst I maintained sales last year (and profits, just) it was due to a rise in PL as a % of sales from 2.33% to 6.42%. meaning my overall ebay costs as a % of sales were 24.4% (up from 19.3% in 2023). I don't think many business sellers manage without spending the minimum 2% on PL.
I admit to being fascinated to see how you will get on. I truly hope you will come back and tell us how you find being a business seller. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm a busines seller, I'm not sure it is too detrimental to me; you are clearly confident and articulate, so please come back and let us know the differences when you have some hindsight. (I will also keep an eye 😎 397 items sold in 90 days is pretty darn good as a side hustle )
26-01-2024 10:57 PM
For trainers above £100:
B pays 7%+VAT fees, P pays 12.8%*0.3+VAT=3.84%+VAT
For trainers that cost £120, B will pay £10 in fees, P will pay £5.50 in fees.
I'm afraid this is not correct. For trainers listed at £100 or more a private seller will pay 8% + 30p.
Final value fees for items listed in the Men's and Women's Trainers categories (Clothes, Shoes & Accessories > Men > Men's Shoes > Trainers and Clothes, Shoes & Accessories > Women > Women's Shoes > Trainers) are 8% + 30p when the selling price (per item) is £100 or more (excluding postage, and any other additional fees or taxes). Items with a starting price of £100 or more are free to list and do not count against your monthly allocation of free listings. All other fees are the same.
Also when considering the cost of business v private there is the cost of business shop subscriptions to take into account. There's no such thing as free listings for business sellers - shop subscriptions drive down the cost of listing as you've probably found out. Shops cost £32.40 - £92.40 - £524.40 per month depending on size. (Plus the cost of listing fees when the subscription amount is used up - 12p or 6p for BINs or 18p per auction). It means a business seller has to find a minimum of £388.88 or £1,108.80 or £6292.80 per year to list. A private seller can have a shop for £19.99 a month, but with the way ebay has set up private listings they are not a necessity.
26-01-2024 11:43 PM
You are saying private is just a little cheaper than business.
But especially in a time when people are counting the pennies, people will goto the fake business listing (without any consumer rights) and buy them. It doesn't make any difference if it is 1p, £1 or £10 they will buy from the dodgy seller rather than the legitimate business. What right has the dodgy seller selling 5 pairs whilst usually doing it illegally, take the business away from legitimate businesses?
And the calculations don't take into account that a lot of those private sellers/dodgy businesses wont be paying any tax on them so can even sell them cheaper and still turn a profit making it even harder for legitimate businesses to survive.
26-01-2024 11:49 PM
Your clearly a business seller as you are selling on new items.
So not only do you need to change to business seller but need to do your yearly accounts and send them to the tax man.
I have been a business seller since 2008 and never turned over £1800 a month !
26-01-2024 11:57 PM - edited 27-01-2024 12:03 AM
@the_book_seekers wrote:I'm afraid this is not correct. For trainers listed at £100 or more a private seller will pay 8% + 30p.
Also when considering the cost of business v private there is the cost of business shop subscriptions to take into account. There's no such thing as free listings for business sellers - shop subscriptions drive down the cost of listing as you've probably found out. Shops cost £32.40 - £92.40 - £524.40 per month depending on size. (Plus the cost of listing fees when the subscription amount is used up - 12p or 6p for BINs or 18p per auction). It means a business seller has to find a minimum of £388.88 or £1,108.80 or £6292.80 per year to list. A private seller can have a shop for £19.99 a month, but with the way ebay has set up private listings they are not a necessity.
You're right. Although the difference is rather small. P's fees would be £3.50 rather than £5.50.
I've incorporated the cost of a shop in a form of insertion fees, which, more or less, match the cost of the most basic shop, as long as you list no more than ca 200-250 items per month. This is comparable with the max. volume of FVF offers (100 per fortnight).
I've also noticed some private account sellers (I even found one private seller with 'trade' in their ebay name) offer returns. So half-crime now? 🙂
I'm still claiming that, at least in the department of trainers, differences in fees are not that significant and crocodile tears are only partially justified.
Also, assumption that private sellers with a few grand turnover per month don't pay taxes is more risky than those sellers' tax position against HMRC.
27-01-2024 10:00 AM
It's not ebay responsibility to make sure sellers are legally compliant. But is is ebay’s responsibility to create a fair marketplace for both buyers and sellers.
27-01-2024 10:26 AM
"Although the difference is rather small. P's fees would be £3.50 rather than £5.50."
A business account seller, selling something for £100 pays £15 fees (the fee + VAT added by eBay). Plus extra expenses like shop fees as no listing is 'free' for business sellers.
A private account seller, selling something for £100 via the 80% off fee promo (as this is what you did, stayed within the boundaries of the fee promo with 100 listings a month so I don't think general private seller fees have any bearing here as you didn't pay them), pays less than £3 in fees (no VAT added by eBay).
I would say the difference is significant. Times that by the £1800 in sales per month for you and that's not even £60 paid in fees versus £270 in fees for a business with that turnover.
You'll justify your actions but now you are in the big boy kingdom with the business account and will see exactly that the difference isn't 'rather small'.
27-01-2024 10:34 AM
When it comes to fees overall ebay takes about 20% of my takings. I do sell low value items so it might be better for what category you are in and average selling price.
27-01-2024 10:58 AM
I was clear that I base my calculation on trainers (what you might have missed), the area I'm familiar with and as fees are smaller over £100, the difference is not that significant (for £120 it is £10 vs £3.50). What I'm saying is that, knowing both sides, the detriment exists, but is exaggerated, especially when profit margin for the most of shops' listings is between 30-40% after fees. PS would have earned £6.50 more in above example, but their profit margins (regardless of the fees) are far lower.
I don't know how it is in other departments, but I believe you are right, as the fees for trainers are different.
There's also another observation, although not evidenced: non-FVF listings have more views than FVF listings. This is especially noticeable with less popular products and 'peg warmers'.
27-01-2024 11:05 AM - edited 27-01-2024 11:07 AM
radek.esq,
All you seem interested in doing is trying to justify what you were doing and how in your eyes it was OK.
Why not just have a bit of decency and admit you were massively in the wrong ?
27-01-2024 11:11 AM
Below is a link to another seller who I know for a fact should be registered as a business:
27-01-2024 11:18 AM
@howmuchtobid wrote:radek.esq,
All you seem interested in doing is trying to justify what you were doing and how in your eyes it was OK.
Why not just have a bit of decency and admit you were massively in the wrong ?
Because your personal satisfaction is not a point of this conversation.
I was afraid and unaware of some aspects of business trading, as well as about the fact, that the difference in fees in my area is smaller than I could have expected. Had I knew, I wouldn't even have started this topic. But when I came to ask, I received mostly hostility in return. So I don't need to justify anything for your self-being, especially for someone, who is afraid of publicly speaking and mentoring from their primary business account, but is rather hiding behind their private one.
27-01-2024 11:24 AM - edited 27-01-2024 11:25 AM
@rainbowtrax wrote:
There are sellers with tens of thousands of listings and over a decade of illegal trading history at those levels and ebay couldn't care less. Their CS agents tell illegal traders to carry on.
Because it is the seller who gets the tax bills and penalties for failing to register. There are (were) no penalties for eBay.
eBay just get more fees and have (until now) had no responsibility if the seller was trading illegally
Now they are required to share all the sales info with HMRC, and they have a "cut off point" they will be ensuring illegal traders change their registration to business once they pass the threshold or they will freeze all funds until they do.
27-01-2024 11:28 AM
True to form, you try to deflect away from the issue of your dishonest trading.
27-01-2024 11:31 AM
@sportex-uk Would you mind please sharing the email that eBay sent you (removing all identifying personal information first)?
I would be interested to see the relevant wording of the email as I think this is the new clampdown eBay have started on illegally registered businesses masquerading as private sellers
Particularly your reference to "new HMRC regulations"
Thank you
27-01-2024 11:34 AM
radek.esq,
In your own words why do you still have literally hundreds of blank listings ?
27-01-2024 11:41 AM
The new HMRC regulations do not affect business/private ratings on ebay.
Ebay have always had the choice to make sellers upgrade, but they usually don't bother. The limit they have for business registration seems to be set pretty much at VAT registration level, and this is purely because they have to take some (financial) responsibility if VAT isn't being paid as due.
If HMRC start to make a noise about the amount of wrongly registered business sellers on here after they start to get the info from ebay, then they may get a bit tougher .. but only if they think it might cost them.
You can have business sellers registered as private that are declaring to HMRC, you can have business registered sellers who are not fully declaring to HMRC. At the end of the day HMRC will only be bothered about tax they are missing out on. They won't be bothered if a trader is business reg or not, they will just want their money!