For parts or not working - not as described

[cra2992]

Sorry, another question!

I've listed some machinery and vehicle major units, engines and the like. They've been stored unused for some years; some I knew the condition of before storage, some are a bit of an unknown, any of them might have deteriorated in storage, and buyers could do damage if they don't recommission them properly.

Values range from a few tens of pounds upwards; one or two are £1000+ All are listed as for parts or not working, and are collection only.

I'm worried about not as described complaints, as they could be difficult and costly to return or get back from the buyer and I'm struggling to find a good way to describe them - particularly after reading this thread: Item listed as "For parts or not working" Buyer s... - UK eBay Community. At the moment I've deleted any subjective or condition information from the listings.

I'd appreciate any thoughts as to the best approach, or whether I'm right to worry. I'm not even sure if collection only items can be not as described?

Thanks

[**peaseblossom**]

Stipulate cash on collection as payment (put it in your description as well) then the buyer will not be able to claim an unfair refund via ebay.   It's safer anyway and usual for collection items.

[four_mid_able]

You could offer cash on pick up but you cannot insist on it.A buyer can pay via any of the other payments offered and most will do as the MBG kicks in (or so they think !).

[m25jet]

If you're selling things like old engines or transmissions removed from old/written off vehicles and are selling them on to be reused then ideally you need to be able to ascertain what kind of condition they are in.  For example, if you're selling an engine then it would be ideal to try and start the engine up before removing it from the vehicle so that you can ascertain whether it runs, and if it does, how well.  That way you can make the item description as accurate as possible - for example, "Engine starts and runs, but has developed a misfire" or "100% original engine; however, has been left standing for the best part of forty years without being turned over during that time, so will more than likely need a full stripdown and rebuild before being used again."  Anything along those lines will give any potential buyer a good idea as to what kind of condition the item is in, and if you do as has already been suggested and stipulate that you prefer cash on collection then the buyer can check out the item upon collection and pay in cash if he/she decides to go ahead with the sale, or if not then once he/she has told you "I've changed my mind" you can just cancel the sale, citing "Buyer Changed His Mind" as the reason why and then relist the item again.

To be honest Item Not As Described complaints are harder for buyers to win, as if they had adequate opportunity to physically inspect the item upon collection - and before paying for it - then they can't be guaranteed that eBay would side with them.  I used work with somebody many years ago who picked up a twin pushchair that she won on eBay, not bothering to check it over closely upon collection, only to find out once she got it home and inspected it closer that it was actually quite badly damaged, yet despite opening an Item Not As Described case on eBay they decided the matter in the seller's favour.  She never did get her money back.

[cra2992]

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@m25jet wrote:

If you're selling things like old engines or transmissions removed from old/written off vehicles and are selling them on to be reused then ideally you need to be able to ascertain what kind of condition they are in ...  That way you can make the item description as accurate as possible ... Anything along those lines will give any potential buyer a good idea as to what kind of condition the item is in, and if you stipulate that you prefer cash on collection then the buyer can check out the item upon collection and pay in cash, or if not then once he/she has told you "I've changed my mind" you can just cancel the sale.

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Thanks. This goes to the heart of my concerns. These are all items I used, or acquired for my own use one way or another, have not used and am clearing out. I ask for cash on collection; initially I'd described the condition to the best of my ability, with what I know of history and known faults, stating in most cases that they are for rebuild / reconditioning only.

My concern is twofold; you can never truly ascertain the condition of a complex item, because components could be on the edge of failure without it being apparent, or deteriorate in storage; and whatever you say in the listing, you have no control over what the buyer does up to and including starting the item without any checks or recommissioning, damaging it and then saying it was defective. I don't feel I can cover every eventuality in the description, and I'm not sure whether it's better to describe what I know (my preference) or say nothing.

Since posting this I've had a message about one high value item just saying 'engin working good?'' (their spelling). I might be harsh, but that doesn't feel to me like a buyer who will carefully recommission or rebuild an item.

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@m25jet wrote:

To be honest Item Not As Described complaints are harder for buyers to win, as if they had adequate opportunity to physically inspect the item upon collection - and before paying for it - then they can't be guaranteed that eBay would side with them.

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Thanks, interesting you say that. My impression was ebay always side with the buyer, and certainly that was the feeling the thread I linked to gave. My experience is that most buyers I deal with are honest, but I also worry - perhaps too much to be selling these things on ebay.

[papso22]

Many years ago collected items were not covered by the money back guarantee at all, things have changed and I think buyer's are fully protected now.

[rjwilmsi]

Selling items "for parts" can be a problematic area if the level of faults/issues or effort/cost to repair are unclear. So yes, right to be concerned.

In my view such items need to be sold of at a price that is reasonable for the buyer, given the expected repair costs (whether buyer does it themselves or e.g. has engine rebuilt by a repair shop). However, if seller cannot fully assess items for repair costs, damage, missing parts etc. then it's difficult to esablish a reasonable price. If the item price is sold off too high then the buyer is just hoping the problems are less than usual - if they are more than usual the buyer may well want a return. And eBay's rules generally mean buyers can always return.

If you aren't in a position to do all the testing on these engines then I think the best thing you can do is state that items are collection only, and you invite buyers to carry out their own inspection before purchase. Then if somebody clueless purchases without seeing item first, or turns up and doesn't want to inspect fully, just tell them that you are not willing to sell the item. You need to find a buyer who can make a decent assessment of the items, then agree a reasonable price with you.

Of course, the lower the items are priced, the less likely you are to have an unhappy buyer.

Or, if you think you have an engine worth good money in need of repair/recondition, have you considered paying for the repair yourself, then listing in reconditioned state for higher, with a full report from the garage etc.? (If you don't think it's worth doing that then maybe that tells you something about the true value of the engine)

[geosacha007]

We see cases of collection items being approved for return by ebay all the time.  In your case, since even you cannot determine the state of the item, the buyer certainly won;t be able to do so when they collect.  So I'd guess ebay would be more likely to side with the buyer.

The less you say in the advert the less likely the buyer can win a refund.  So you could just say "not working". That would not give them anything to latch on to in a not as described case.

Is there no other place you could sell the items where you would not be taking the return risk?

[*vyolla*]

Bottom line is, unless you can persuade your buyer to pay with cash then they will be covered by eBay's Money Back Guarantee and you'll end up having to arrange (and pay) for the return, which may prove interesting if it's a heavy item and they live 100 miles away. 

We see a few not as described chargebacks issued for collection items too (when the buyer uses a debit or credit card to fund their payment). In this instance the buyer ends up keeping the item and getting their money back.

Plus, if the item is over £100 and they fund the payment with their credit card they may be covered for years.

On that basis, unless payment is in cash, I would stick with listing only what you can afford to lose. 

[dancewithadingo]

Good Afternoon Cra

There are difficulties in selling most items and things can go wrong.  The advice that I gave you yesterday holds good for today ie CASH ON COLLECTION. 

If you are still nervous about selling on eBay then don't. Use Gumtree or an add in your local paper etc. It's a simple choice cash on pick-up or go elsewhere ( where you will be accepting cash anyway).

[beechvale76_5]

Make sure if there are parts missing you state so in the listing. Buyers might buy them for parts and if a certain piece is missing they could start an INAD.

[pillarboxred]

Vyolla's advice is depressing but true. I think though that you should make clear when a part is usable because you have inspected it. You might be better taking this junk to a metal dealer and getting the scrap metal price. I know a woman who takes all the household brassware she gets to the scrap yard. She's probably destroyed quite a lot of antique brass I fear but it has become very difficult to sell and she is happy with the £2 a kilo or whatever she gets.

[nigel_paul_wright7557]

Not working items are a nightmare.

If the buyer buys it then is unable to fix it then it wasnt "not working" but was "beyond repair" and in this case the buyer should be allowed to return it.

We really dont want ebay to become the local tip where useless junk is offloaded.

[cra2992]

Good morning all, thanks for all your thoughts.

As I understand it you can't insist on or stipulate cash on collection - the buyer can still pay online if they want. I specify cash on collection, but probably only half my buyers pay that way. I can do my best to persuade buyers, but I don't think I can demand it.

What set me thinking was partly reading threads like the one I linked to above, partly problems someone else is having with an irrational buyer (not on ebay), partly an item I sold recently. To @*vyolla* 's point, the buyer was 500 miles away and it was a large, heavy item; had there been a problem, it wouldn't have been practical to have it returned and I might have lost the item and the money.

To be clear, this is not a case of selling junk that is not repairable or would be better in the scrap, or of pricing, or of a buyer being unable to fix something. In the past I've never had a problem selling complex technical items. I'd say the vast majority of my prospective buyers are rational and understand buying a a used item of this type. It's more about the best way to write a clear, honest listing while taking into account irrational buyers, remorse or over-optimism, the risk of perverse ebay / MBG decisions, my anxieties and so on.

I think there's a balance; what is the right market, what is the right way to list something, whether or not to make any comment about item condition, and so on, and again my anxieties, rational or not. Having come back to ebay after some years, I'm really trying to understand the right balance to strike in the current ebay world, particularly MBG (apparently) applying to collection items.

Thanks again.

[kath3735_wxmjn]

but one mans junk is another mans treasure.  I have sold many things on here and on car boot that i used to put in the tip and yet someone else has just needed that exact thing!.  My brother died a couple of years ago and he was a keen photographer and airplane spotter and a heavy smoker to boot!   Sold a lot of his photos online (fully described including the cigarette smell!).  Also he made his own picture frames, again sold quite a few on the car boot to someone from a photo club.  All would have been ditched but now recycled, even if for a short time.   Then there are the part sets of toys that i have sold for spares instead of just throwing out.

[cra2992]

Also probably need to think whether I should de-list a couple of items I have on at the moment (no bids, some watchers) while working out my approach?

[jckl1957]

Just to add my limited experience into the mix ...

Sellers seem most likely to get problems and requests for returns for such items when they raise the buyer's expectations.

Phrases such as 'just needs a new ...'. 'was working perfectly when I put it in the shed', 'probably only needs to be cleaned and serviced', 'missing a ... but easy and cheap to replace that part'.

I would advise putting as little as you can in the description.

'Note this is being sold for parts because it is NOT WORKING' would not guarantee no returns and you might get less for the item, but buyers would know what they were getting.

[thesmokingrunner]

@cra2992  Some significant misinformation is contained in a number of the previous replies and I really think that needs to be corrected lest you rely on it being fact.

Cash on collection items are covered by eBay's MBG and a cash on collection buyer can open a Not As Described case. Should that happen the seller would be responsible for both arranging the collection and return of the item from the buyer (or else they lose the item) and refunding the buyer.

The idea that accepting cash on collection prevents a refund being claimed is no longer valid as a refund can easily be processed through Managed Payments and eBay will, if necessary, make the refund from your bank account - access to which you gave when you signed up to MP.

All this was raised in the Weekly Community Chat on 31 January 2024 (https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Chat-with-the-eBay-Community/Weekly-Chat-with-the-eBay-Community-Tea...) : Posts 7, 14, 18, 24, 26 and 30 refer.

In short, @papso22 is correct in Post 6 above. Unfortunately some of the other replies are far from correct.

[*vyolla*]

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@thesmokingrunner wrote:

@cra2992  Some significant misinformation is contained in a number of the previous replies and I really think that needs to be corrected lest you rely on it being fact.

Cash on collection items are covered by eBay's MBG and a cash on collection buyer can open a Not As Described case. Should that happen the seller would be responsible for both arranging the collection and return of the item from the buyer (or else they lose the item) and refunding the buyer.

The idea that accepting cash on collection prevents a refund being claimed is no longer valid as a refund can easily be processed through Managed Payments and eBay will, if necessary, make the refund from your bank account - access to which you gave when you signed up to MP.

All this was raised in the Weekly Community Chat on 31 January 2024 (https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Chat-with-the-eBay-Community/Weekly-Chat-with-the-eBay-Community-Tea...) : Posts 7, 14, 18, 24, 26 and 30 refer.

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Cash payments aren't covered by eBay's Money Back Guarantee.

As a buyer, for your transaction to be eligible for eBay Money Back Guarantee:

• You must complete and pay for your purchase on eBay.co.uk using an eligible payment method at checkout;

Not covered:

• Items paid for where any part of the payment was completed outside of eBay (such as bank transfer, cash, money orders, escrow services)

eBay's policy page:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee?id=4...

[cra2992]

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@jckl1957 wrote:

Sellers seem most likely to get problems and requests for returns for such items when they raise the buyer's expectations

...

I would advise putting as little as you can in the description ... you might get less for the item, but buyers would know what they were getting.

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I could see that. Again for me it's about that balance; I don't want to put someone off unnecessarily just to protect myself againt irrational buyers. but don't want to oversell either.

Of the two listings I was worried about, I've de-listed one and said of the other it doesn't work, I haven't tested it, I don't know if the parts work, and so on. I may still de-list it but it has four watchers and I don't want to let them down either.