lambsy_uk
Conversationalist
“Are you really claiming that if an activity is considered ‘fun’ by those participating then that is justification for the act?”

For them it is justification yes! I’d guess that for most sports or pursuits enjoyment is a large part of the motivation to partake.

“Those taking part in **bleep** fighting, hare coursing and dog fighting no doubt consider it fun - are these also justifiable pastimes in your opinion?”

The people taking part may feel they are justifiable past times whereas others, including myself in some cases disagree. But this does not make one group ultimately right or wrong; just a difference of opinion.

What you need to realise is that certain activities are deep within us, they are part of the human condition. Hunting is as old as the hills, fighting may well be too, it’s not easy to just knock it out of people and legislating against it won’t change the human nature in a hurry to want to pursuit such activities.


“Maybe you consider being a “good shot” is a “human quality” - I think you are mixing a skill up with a quality.”


I can understand that opinion but I believe it is valid to believe having such a good skill can also be considered a good quality. Being a good shot or good at hunting would have been a quality very important to a man and perhaps a mate at one time, and perhaps still is.

I accept that those who partake in blood sports see the fun element as justification for their actions.  However we live in a democratic society which sets a level of moral standards and enacts those standards via legal statutes.  

 

Those moral standards change over time and so do the laws that reflect those changes.  At the moment pheasant and other bird shoots are still lawful but as the wider public become more aware of them I expect that in time they will follow the likes of hare coursing and become illegal - which in my opinion will be no bad thing.

 

Certainly hunting is, if you like, inbred in many ways in human nature but there is a world of difference, again in my opinion, between hunting for fun and hunting for food.  

 

Simply put, I believe that harming or killing any animal for “fun” is morally wrong. 

I agree with creeky, killing any animal for fun is abhorrent, however the shooting of clays in a variety of ways does offer an opportunity to get out of doors and be competitive, just as much as I do not think that trail hunting should be banned! If properly applied it can replace fox hunting without harming anything.

lambsy_uk
Conversationalist
Thanks for the reply Creeky, as you say a democratic society sets a level of moral standard that becomes upheld by law and over time as things come to the attention of a wider public then yes perhaps certain pursuits may follow the way of Hare Coursing and **bleep** Fighting. I questioned the relevance of the Century we are in because I’d have thought in no small way the advancement of communication technology and education could be identified as factors in the progression of such attitudes and laws rather than the Century number. What may trouble some is how morality is established. It seems there’s always going to be some interest group pressuring the law makers to see things their way. Once a victory is won on fighting they turn to hunting. Soon will be horse and dog racing, then show jumping and perhaps dog agility. Snail racing, meat eating; is there any end to it?

“Is there any end to it?” - Probably not - moral standards are constantly changing. 

 

In my relatively short life time I have seen massive changes in standards and opinions from making homosexuality legal to changes in animal welfare and attitudes towards racial, religious and sexual bigotry and the ending of the death penalty. 

 

What we have to be aware of though is that not all changes are necessarily for the common good despite being supported by a majority.  You only have to look at Germany in the thirties and how propaganda and political manipulation changed the general attitude towards the Jews and made statutory changes acceptable to the majority.

 

Personally I’d have no problem with the outlawing of horse and dog racing, show jumping and even snail racing but I accept that I am probably in a minority regarding those and have to accept societies moral judgement of them.  That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be able to speak up against them and encourage others to do so.  

 

If we try to repress the minority from expressing their moral stance then there is nothing to stop extreme views from becoming, or remaining, the majority opinion.

Looking at things a different way.... if some forms of animal "sport" were outlawed, many of those animals would have "no further use" so what would happen to them?

 

Taken to extreme, keeping horses as "pets" and riding them could also be construed as worthy of "outlawing" so where do you stop?



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

You’re right, keeping horses as pets, for that matter keeping any animal as a pet could be “construed as worthy of ‘outlawing’.

 

All the pets we have ever “owned” have come to us one way or the other because animals have been kept as pets.  We would certainly never abandon them but likewise we’d never breed them to produce more pets.

 

The moral argument for keeping a pet is in many ways similar to that of keeping animals for food.  For me, so long as those animals are treated well and killed in a humane way when necessary then I don’t have a problem - others have a different point of view -  if and when they become the viewpoint of the majority then I will abide by that.

lambsy_uk
Conversationalist
I believe we’ve demonstrated that following the viewpoint of the majority can be problematic.

Lambsy...if you are referring to our present political predicament, it would have been a lot less problematic if the viewpoint of the majority had been followed. 

We see this all the time on many fronts. A "decision" is made, when it's not what some want to hear, they'll move mountains in the pursuit of their own agenda in a bid to prove "it" was or "they" were wrong.



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

lambsy_uk
Conversationalist
No I wasn’t referring to our present political predicament, Creeky mentioned the Nazis; I’m sure there’s many other historical examples; Communist Russia for one. Majority rule can become tyranny.

Doesn't tyranny force the hand of "the majority"?



It's life Jim, but not as WE know it.
Live long and prosper.

lambsy_uk
Conversationalist
It can do.

When I read the title of this thread I foolishly thought it was going to be sumfink interesting open_mouth