It's been a while :-)

[**bustysinclaire**]

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-no1-2018-jan-feb/bible-guidance-relevant/

A topic that is being offered for discussion this month. Some may find it interesting xxx

[**bustysinclaire**]

Sorry Busty but you still haven’t addressed the “four corners” phrase.

Why use such a description unless the author believed the Earth was square?

There is nothing else I can add creeky, like the four winds, the four corners are symbolic, representing the positions of the 4 angelic groups holding the winds which represent the destruction back. Four corners representing the whole earthly system inline for destruction.
A prophetic vision given to the apostle John by Jesus Christ
I do understand what you are asking, I personally don't feel I need that question answered because I know God made the earth-planet a sphere and also accept and understand the seperate prophetic and symbolic account of the destruction of an earthly system.

It is how we interpret what is written.

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

Another scientific anomaly in the JW Bible occurs in Kings 7 :23

Then he made the Sea of cast metal. It was circular in shape, 10 cubits from brim to brim and 5 cubits high, and it took a measuring line 30 cubits long to encircle it.

That makes pi = 3

---

Sorry creeky I'm not sure what you are asking or pointing out there.

[cee-dee]

First of all looking at #415 and #417, your posts at #416 and #420 have proved me right exactly.

Secondly, creeky's post at #419 is an anomaly I didn't know about but he's quite right, it doesn't work out correctly.

The thing is, at the time there were several different cubits!!! There was the Hebrew long and the Hebrew short for a start plus at least four others. It doesn't matter which one they used as from the diameter given the correct circumference would be 31. 41 (as a nearer length) cubits.

I suppose a nit-picker (????) will say that they were just giving a length easily recogniseable by simple folks of the time but the thing is, simple folks wouldn't be reading it because they couldn't read so the scholars could have been more accurate. Next I suppose the excuse for the incorrect measurement will be that the scholars would be reading it to simple folk and had to use a length simple folk could comprehend but would they even comprehend the length of a cubit?

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@**bustysinclaire** wrote:

Sorry Busty but you still haven’t addressed the “four corners” phrase.

Why use such a description unless the author believed the Earth was square?

There is nothing else I can add creeky, like the four winds, the four corners are symbolic, representing the positions of the 4 angelic groups holding the winds which represent the destruction back. Four corners representing the whole earthly system inline for destruction.
A prophetic vision given to the apostle John by Jesus Christ
I do understand what you are asking, I personally don't feel I need that question answered because I know God made the earth-planet a sphere and also accept and understand the seperate prophetic and symbolic account of the destruction of an earthly system.

It is how we interpret what is written.

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

Another scientific anomaly in the JW Bible occurs in Kings 7 :23

Then he made the Sea of cast metal. It was circular in shape, 10 cubits from brim to brim and 5 cubits high, and it took a measuring line 30 cubits long to encircle it.

That makes pi = 3

---

Sorry creeky I'm not sure what you are asking or pointing out there.

---

Arh I see another poster has clarified the point you were making creeky.

I wasn't actually aware of this so called anomaly so had to research a bit. I came across this.

From Insight on the Scriptures Vol 2 (1988)

MOLTEN SEA (COPPER SEA)

When the temple was constructed during Solomon’s reign, a “molten [that is, cast or poured] sea” replaced the portable basin of copper used with the earlier tabernacle. (Ex 30:17-21; 1Ki 7:23, 40, 44) Built by Hiram, a Hebrew-Phoenician, it was evidently called a “sea” because of the large quantity of water it could contain. This vessel, also of copper, was “ten cubits [4.5 m; 14.6 ft] from its one brim to its other brim, circular all around; and its height was five cubits [c. 2.2 m; 7.3 ft], and it took a line of thirty cubits [13.4 m; 44 ft] to circle all around it.”​—1Ki 7:23.

Circumference.

The circumference of 30 cubits is evidently a round figure, for more precisely it would be 31.4 cubits. In this regard, Christopher Wordsworth quotes a certain Rennie as making this interesting observation: “Up to the time of Archimedes [third century B.C.E.], the circumference of a circle was always measured in straight lines by the radius; and Hiram would naturally describe the sea as thirty cubits round, measuring it, as was then invariably the practice, by its radius, or semi-diameter, of five cubits, which being applied six times round the perimeter, or ‘brim,’ would give the thirty cubits stated. There was evidently no intention in the passage but to give the dimensions of the Sea, in the usual language that every one would understand, measuring the circumference in the way in which all skilled workers, like Hiram, did measure circles at that time. He, of course, must however have known perfectly well, that as the polygonal hexagon thus inscribed by the radius was thirty cubits, the actual curved circumference would be somewhat more.” (Notes on the King James Version, London, 1887) Thus, it appears that the ratio of three to one (that is, the circumference being three times the diameter) was a customary way of stating matters, intended to be understood as only approximate

[cee-dee]

You really must stop this, you're proving me right soooo often that I might get ideas above my station.

Ignore this, deflect from that, explain the other with JW gobbledeygook and so on with no proper answers.

With all thsese "explanations" of how JW's "interpret" things, next thing you'll be trying to explain how your interpretation of 4 + 4 equals 9.

You're quite wrong about Archimedes and pi, more than 1500 years before Archimedes, the Babylonians used a figure of 3.125 for pi and also another gave 3.1605 for it's value. Archimedes value of pi was only an approximation but it was closer than that used before. We won't bother with the Chinese approximation eh?

[upthecreekyetagain]

All the above is irrelevant - either the Bible IS scientifically accurate or it IS NOT.

You can’t claim one part is “scientific truth” because it is in the Bible and then when something that isn’t scientifically accurate is pointed out claim it is just “symbolic”.

I thought JWs took the word of the Bible literally.  If one part is symbolic then that undermines any other claim as being the literal truth - how are we supposed to know which is “symbolic” and which isn’t?

With regards to the value of pi - if the Bible is inaccurate or unclear in that instance then who decides which parts are accurate and clear?

Kings and Chronicles both describe the same sea

From Kings 7 - And its thickness was a handbreadth; and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It would hold 2,000 bath measures.

‘From Chronicles 4 - And its thickness was a handbreadth; and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like a lily blossom. The reservoir could hold 3,000 bath measures

So depending on the writer the “sea” could hold either 2,000 or 3,000 bath measures - (mathematical calculation actually suggests the capacity would be just over 1,000 measures).

Is this a mistake or as seems more likely just an estimate by the writer?  If the former then how are we to know what other mistakes there may be in the Bible and if the latter then this would indicate that the writings in the Bible are from the hand of man and not the hand of God.

[cee-dee]

The relationship between the diameter and circumference of a circle was known about by the Sumerians but their value for the constant wasn't a proper value for pi. The use of the Greek letter for pi was first used at the beginning of the 18th century.

In the day of the biblical verses, no-one was checking what was said and later what was written down didn't need to be that accurate because no-one bothered checking what someone else said. To the people listening to readings, it was all marvelous, if they'd heard similar before and it was different, they wouldn't remember the detail anyway, only the gist of it.

You can't rely on either what was said, what was written or what was (mis)translated. To the simple people listening to it all, they believed it because it all sounded believable in the world as they knew it.

Words were used and understood in one language, in another a particular word could be used for several meanings. Try looking at a few different translations of this:-  "La Donna è mobile" and see what turns up.

Ancient Greek words could have different meanings for the same word. Current English is no different.

[**bustysinclaire**]

---

@upthecreekyetagain wrote:

All the above is irrelevant - either the Bible IS scientifically accurate or it IS NOT.

You can’t claim one part is “scientific truth” because it is in the Bible and then when something that isn’t scientifically accurate is pointed out claim it is just “symbolic”.

I thought JWs took the word of the Bible literally.  If one part is symbolic then that undermines any other claim as being the literal truth - how are we supposed to know which is “symbolic” and which isn’t?

With regards to the value of pi - if the Bible is inaccurate or unclear in that instance then who decides which parts are accurate and clear?

Kings and Chronicles both describe the same sea

From Kings 7 - And its thickness was a handbreadth; and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It would hold 2,000 bath measures.

‘From Chronicles 4 - And its thickness was a handbreadth; and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like a lily blossom. The reservoir could hold 3,000 bath measures

So depending on the writer the “sea” could hold either 2,000 or 3,000 bath measures - (mathematical calculation actually suggests the capacity would be just over 1,000 measures).

Is this a mistake or as seems more likely just an estimate by the writer?  If the former then how are we to know what other mistakes there may be in the Bible and if the latter then this would indicate that the writings in the Bible are from the hand of man and not the hand of God.

---

You may personally not see it as relevant. 

What is the Bible? - my own understanding:-

Gods word in a book, Literal accounts, prohetic and symbolic accounts. all for our teaching (1 Timothy 3;16) which has to be taken as a whole. 

I thought JWs took the word of the Bible literally

JW's have always taken the whole book to be a book with all three and to read it to completion helps you to understand the overal theme of the Bible From creation to the restoration of Gods purpose and most importantly the vindication of his name and sovereignty.

If one part is symbolic then that undermines any other claim as being the literal truth - how are we supposed to know which is “symbolic” and which isn’t?

As anyone takes a sincere interest  and genuinely wants to learn the truth and recognises God and Jesus Christ's authority then we are helped to understand the truths and come to an accurate knowledge. 

This link should you wish to have your points better addressed is very informative.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-study/what-is-the-bible/

Also this link discusses the topic. 

Does the bible contradict itself.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989037

Basically in my opinion, It is down to us as individuals how we process the information given to us by God and Jesus Christ through their chosen channels and what that then motivates us to do with it.

[**bustysinclaire**]

It''s taken me a couple of days to reread the thread. A few more posts have disappeared too.


There are many decent folk, and I know many who post on the RT are very good kind and caring people and are dismayed at the many injustices of the world. For example one poster recently made a comment about Global warming stating it is mankinds irresponsibility that has caused it. JW's are just as dismayed.

One particular poster seemed to be on a mission and is/ was almost obsessed with stearing the thread down a negative path, using all kinds of falsehoods against them.
What qualities would you say decent people have? I know many on the RT have lots of good qualities.
As I read the thread again there are so many misunderstandings about the JW organisation, about them as individual people.
It makes me realise people just don't know them. What do they think Jehovah's Witnesses are all about? (apart from the obvious religion bit)

[cee-dee]

They're a controlling cult. Story, end of.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Free will, is God in control?

The Bible’s answer

God dignifies us with free will, the power to make decisions of our own rather than having God or fate predetermine what we do. Consider what the Bible teaches.
God created humans in his image. (Genesis 1:26) Unlike animals, which act mainly on instinct, we resemble our Creator in our capacity to display such qualities as love and justice. And like our Creator, we have free will.
To a great extent, we can determine our future. The Bible encourages us to “choose life . . . by listening to [God’s] voice,” that is, by choosing to obey his commands. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) This offer would be meaningless, even cruel, if we lacked free will. Instead of forcing us to do what he says, God warmly appeals to us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”—Isaiah 48:18.
Our success or failure is not determined by fate. If we want to succeed at an endeavor, we must work hard. “All that your hand finds to do,” says the Bible, “do with your very power.”(Ecclesiastes 9:10) It also says: “The plans of the diligent one surely make for advantage.”—Proverbs 21:5.
Free will is a precious gift from God, for it lets us love him with our “whole heart”—because we want to.—Matthew 22:37.
Doesn’t God control all things?
The Bible does teach that God is Almighty, that his power is not limited by anyone other than himself. (Job 37:23; Isaiah 40:26) However, he does not use his power to control everything. For example, the Bible says that God was “exercising self-control” toward ancient Babylon, an enemy of his people. (Isaiah 42:14) Similarly, for now, he chooses to tolerate those who misuse their free will to harm others. But God will not do so indefinitely.—Psalm 37:10, 11.

Can the Devil control Humans?

The Bible’s answer

The Devil and the demons influence mankind so much that the Bible says: “The Evil One controls the whole world.” (1 John 5:​19, New Century Version) The Bible identifies ways that the Devil exerts this influence on people.
Deception. The Bible encourages Christians to “fight against the devil’s evil tricks.” (Ephesians 6:​11, NCV ) One of his tricks is to deceive people into believing that his agents are actually servants of God.​—2 Corinthians 11:13-​15.
Spiritism. The Devil misleads people through spirit mediums, fortune-tellers, and those who practice divination or astrology. (Deuteronomy 18:10-​12) Drug use, hypnotism, and meditation techniques that empty the mind also expose a person to demon control.​—Luke 11:24-​26.
False religion. Religions that teach false doctrines mislead people into disobeying God. (1 Corinthians 10:20) The Bible calls such false beliefs “teachings of demons.”​—1 Timothy 4:1.
Possession. The Bible records cases of evil spirits taking control of individuals. Sometimes demon-possessed people were struck blind or mute or even injured themselves.​—Matthew 12:22; Mark 5:​2-5.
How to avoid the Devil’s influence
You need not live in dread of demon control, for the Bible shows how you can successfully oppose the Devil:
Learn to recognize the Devil’s methods so that you are “not ignorant of his designs.”​—2 Corinthians 2:​11.
Take in knowledge from the Bible, and then apply what you learn. Applying Bible principles will protect you from the Devil’s influence.​—Ephesians 6:​11-​18.
Get rid of anything connected with demon activity. (Acts 19:19) That includes music, books, magazines, posters, and videos that encourage spiritism

[cee-dee]

This is an organisation that has rules on just about everything plus "advice" on everything else. A "controlling organisation" seems fair comment?

They take note of members activities and an interesting item is the "Flock Book".

There's forms for all sorts of things and an interesting one is the S 77 form. I wonder how often THAT get's used or used as a bit of intimidation?

One of the things a member is not supposed to do is to read anything opposing the JW doctrine. That's a bit rich considering how they try to ram their beliefs down the throat of everyone else (witness this thread)?

An interesting definition of a cult is :- "a religious or social group with socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices".

So based on that definition it seems fair to say that the JWs are a cult?

I've never been to a Kingdom Hall, the nearest I've been is driving past one. If I went, they'd expect me to listen to them, but would they listen to me? I think not?

[garygee]

JW helped my neighbour and she wasn't even a member

[cee-dee]

I see a lack of comment? Ah well, a few more snippets.

The Flock book. Now as you know (you did know didn't you?) that the organisation is run by men, women are tolerated but have little status. The congregation(s) are administered by the elders, all men of course!

Issued to the elders is the flock book. It used to be "Pay Attention to Yourselves and all the Flock". The current one is called "Shepherd the Flock of God". In there you'll find all the "instructions" for keeping the flock in order.

Women have no access to it and are not even supposed to know of it's existence.

If you transgress, you could be "Marked", a sort of admonishment and shaming. If you've really upset the applecart, just a couple of people could complete form S 77 to have you disassociated or disfellowshipped. Shunning would then follow, they wouldn't associate with you or talk to you.

Meddling is considered a reason for marking as is associating with non-members, discussing things other than JW beliefs and indulging in improper entertainment. It could be construed that a member posting on here may well have crossed the threshold for all those "crimes"? I wonder what the elders would say on reading this thread?

There's a few other processes if you're deemed to have transgressed which are designed to show you the error of your ways so that you "repent" and all in all, go to show the level of control exerted on members so that they conform to JW doctrine. Who would want to willingly subject themselves to such control knowing the full story from the outset?

[astrologica]

Ah,CeeDee....this mention of a Flock brings to mind a quote from the late Christopher Hitchens, an Atheist, who said,

'An early objection to Christianity at school, was being told I was part of a Flock. Shepherds don't look after sheep because they like them. **bleep**

Sorry if I've lowered the tone!

[astrologica]

And I'm not suggesting that the JW elders look after their sheep for the same reasons..being part of a flock never appealed to C Hitchens, and it doesn't appeal to me either. Never wanted to follow the herd, I like to think for myself, being born a fully paid up member of the awkward squad! That book sounds like a manual for keeping the nice sheep docile and obedient. I am amazed at the similarities between the JW faith and Islam, especially how they treat women, and how they relate to non members.

[cee-dee]

I'm sure you would be pretty shocked if you knew what goes on and what was expected of you as a female member.

[**bustysinclaire**]

Is marriage just a social union?

“What God has yoked together let no man put apart.”—Matthew 19:6.
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS
In God’s eyes, marriage is much more than a mere social arrangement. It is a sacred union between a man and a woman. The Bible says: “From the beginning of creation ‘[God] made them male and female. On this account a man will leave his father and mother, and the two will be one flesh’ . . . Therefore what God yoked together let no man put apart.”

*—Mark 10:6-9; Genesis 2:24.
The words, “what God yoked [or, joined] together,” do not mean that marriages are made in heaven. Rather, by pointing to our Creator as the Originator of the marriage arrangement, the Bible emphasizes the seriousness of this union. Couples who see their marriage in that light treat it as a sacred, permanent bond, thus strengthening their determination to make their marriage a success. They further increase their prospects for success when they turn to the Bible for guidance in fulfilling their respective roles as husband and wife.

What is the man’s role?
“A husband is head of his wife.”—Ephesians 5:23

.
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS

For a family to function well, someone has to make final decisions on matters. The Bible assigns that responsibility to the husband. But that does not entitle him to be an autocrat or a bully. Nor does it allow him to shirk his responsibilities, thus eroding his wife’s respect for him and imposing a needless burden upon her. Rather, God expects him to work hard to care for his wife and to assign her honor as his most intimate and trusted companion. (1 Timothy 5:8; 1 Peter 3:7) “Husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies,” says Ephesians 5:28.

A husband who truly loves his wife values her abilities and talents and respectfully considers her views, especially on matters that may affect the family. He should not insist on his way simply because he is the family head. When the godly man Abraham rejected his wife’s sound advice on a family matter, Jehovah God said to him: “Listen to her voice.” (Genesis 21:9-12) Abraham humbly complied, and his family enjoyed peace and unity, as well as God’s blessing.

What is the woman’s role?

“Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.”—1 Peter 3:1.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS

Just before creating a wife for the first man, God said: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.” (Genesis 2:18) A complement is something that completes or makes perfect. Thus, God created the woman, not to be the same as the man or to compete with him, but to be his counterpart. Together, they could fulfill their divine commission to have children and fill the earth with their own kind.—Genesis 1:28.
To enable the woman to fulfill her role, God gave her the ideal physical, mental, and emotional attributes. When she uses these wisely and lovingly, she contributes immeasurably to the success of her marriage and helps her husband feel content and emotionally secure. In God’s eyes, such a fine woman is worthy of praise.
Proverbs 31:28, 31

The following links will explain that women are honoured and cherished by God.

Women are not treated in any other way than respectfully.

And we aere undercommand to love our neighbour, that goes far beyond just giving them a cup of sugar.  

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20120901/women-respect-and-dignity/

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20120901/gods-view-of-women/#?insight[search_id]=1439...

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20020901/Good-Neighbors-Are-an-Asset/#?insight[search_...

[astrologica]

I have a pretty good idea CeeDee. I have a friend who used to be a Witness. Then she saw the light and escaped...it was like watching a beautiful butterfly emerging!

[cee-dee]

Yes, it's clearly demonstrated on here how the brainwashed react before they break free? I'm sure your friend is much happier away from the overbearing organisation?

Everything is ordered or "recommended". Would you believe there's a huge page just about fingernails? Here's a small extract:-

The way you file or cut your nails can make them strong or weak. It is recommended that you file your nails from the side toward the middle. Keep in mind that filing the corners away will weaken the nail. This will create a pointed nail, which is the weakest shape of all, since it has no support on the sides. For strong short nails, it is recommended that you let your nails grow straight out to about 1/16 inch at the sides and file a round shape that follows the contour of the fingertip.

Some women might like to have their nails a little longer. But here is a word of caution. Nails that are too long might attract undue attention as well as stop you from doing ordinary work. So keep a balanced view of the length of your nails. If you do, your nails will be an asset and make a good impression on others.