Anne Maguire murder.

[merehazle]

Will Cornick the teenager was 15 years old when he stabbed teacher Ann Maguire,61, to death as she taught at a class at Corpus Christi Catholic Colledge, in leeds in April.

He excchanged messages with a friend early on Christmas day on Facebook. ''In those messages he spoke of 'brutally killing' Mrs Maguire and spending the rest of his life in jail so as not to have to worry about life or money.''                                            

He continues to show no remorse.  If ever someone was evil it must be him.  The only sentence for him surly is a whole life sentence.  

At the moment the judge say's 20 years in prison, and he may serve a whole life sentence. Why give him any hope? He did not give Ann, any. And who should have this monster living next door to them without knowing it?  The judges  perhaps?

Warning there is a picture of Will Cornick on my attachment.

[lambsy_uk]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Many teenagers have gone through "a stage" where someone became the object of their "frustrations" over some minor thing, often related to either some ridicule, a discipline or "telling off". Virtually all didn't act on their irrational thoughts and went on with their lives without a problem. If every one of those had been subjected to some form of "intervention", we'd be left with a lot of very disturbed people.

Some things are beyond comprehension and those who continually try to "understand" the incomprehensible, often drive themselves mad!!.

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If you can't understand you can at least try to recognise and act against!

I don't believe many teenagers go through a stage where they openly talk of fantacising about killing a teacher.

Some people seem to be full of condemnation for the offender (fair enough) and sympathy for the victim and family (of course) but don't wish to even consider that perhaps we could learn from this, get to recognise abnormal behaviours and perhaps prevent future incidents.

Where would we be if everyone just shrugged their shoulders and gave excuses for why things couldn't be done?!

[saasher2012]

The do gooders way isn't working is it! Far from it as another poster said they let them out again & more have been killed ,& in theory they were understood & one suspects intensely otherwise they wouldn't have been set free, so your statement about the victims fall flat on that score.
You also say you are uneasy about Capital punishment , however you are happy to take the chance of someone being released on the off chance they may have been reformed, so are you not uneasy that they may murder again.?.

[lambsy_uk]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
I can assure you I'm confusing nothing, he is a murderer & therefore deserves everything that's thrown at him & more!! The sooner the better!!, let the do gooders make themselves feel good when he's inside & away from harming more potential victims!.
Not once have you shown the same understanding apart from a couple of comments about the victim, I notice the same applies to the others who rush forward to try & find an understanding of this so called human being!!.

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We already understand victims and those close to them. We undestand why they feel how they feel and how the incidents may impact upon them. We recognise the cause and effect.

Understanding the offender is also about cause and effect. "Why did you punch Johnny?", "because he was teasing me and calling me names." Cause and effect that most of us recognise, understand and appreciate will probably change over time as people mature.

"Why did you kill Mrs. Maguire?" "Because I had an inexplicable and irrational hatred for her which led to fantacies of brutally killing her."

Now here's a cause and effect which we don't understand but perhaps would be useful if we did! It can also be recognised as an irrational thought process that may not have the same propensity to change through maturity in the way that Johnny's is likely to, thus making this person far more dnagerous and therefore important to recognise!

[saasher2012]

They don't deserve understanding, the victims family Need to know these objects are out of harms way forever & not have to worry about others having to go through what they have, anyone crossing the line & resorting to murder should be removed from society by whatever means & it should be permanent ! Once again I repeat nobody is in the position to second guess these people until the event, then it's too late , so that being the case remove them totally so they can never cause pain & grief to anyone other than themselves again!!

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@saasher2012 wrote:

Not once have you shown the same understanding apart from a couple of comments about the victim, I notice the same applies to the others who rush forward to try & find an understanding of this so called human being!!.

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I was a teacher.    Believe me, I understand the perils of the classroom and I have great sympathy for the victim.  Her life is over.  That can never be changed. 

I do not have sympathy for the perpetrator.  He will spend at least 20 yrs in prison and that is reasonable in view of his violent act.

If the lengthy sentence stops just one other teen acting out his or her fantasy, all well and good. 

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@cee-dee wrote:

Time out of number we see do-gooders making excuses for evil-doers and when they're done, they conclude that it's all someone else's fault!

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No, it is not someone else's fault.  But if we learn what might have been done differently in the build-up to the offence, then maybe in the future a person who might have died in similar circumstances will not.

[lambsy_uk]

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saasher2012 wrote:
The do gooders way isn't working is it! Far from it

What has do gooders got to do with prevention of furture incidents?

as another poster said they let them out again & more have been killed ,& in theory they were understood & one suspects intensely otherwise they wouldn't have been set free, so your statement about the victims fall flat on that score.

What statement about victims? (if you quoted what I'd said I may know what you were referring to.)

You also say you are uneasy about Capital punishment , however you are happy to take the chance of someone being released on the off chance they may have been reformed

I've not said I'm happy to take a chance on someone being released; in fact the only thing I've said about release is that the lad in question is likely to always pose a threat and therefore if may be right for him to never be released! (where are you getting this from?)

so are you not uneasy that they may murder again.?.

Of course I am uneasy which is why I said it may be appropriate for him to never be free!

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[bankhaunter]

 If the lengthy sentence stops just one other teen acting out his or her fantasy, all well and good. 

I'm not saying he shouldn't have had a long sentence but it won't stop others, there is little evidence to show longer sentences for any crime act as a deterrent and in the case of this particular person they weren't bothered by the prospect of prison.

This individual may be at the pinnacle of anti social behaviour which runs right down to the noisy neighbour that doesn't see anything wrong with playing music at full volume at 2.00 am and refuses to stop doing it, it's only a matter of degree.

If we do not attempt to understand why such individuals behave in that manner, we won't find a way of avoiding it and it will just continue.

Unfortunately like with so many other problems, there is little money in preventative research/action, a mentally ill person can tell people or even the police they feel they are going to commit a violent act and no action is or can be taken until it's too late.

[lambsy_uk]

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saasher2012 wrote:

They don't deserve understanding,

It is not for their benefit but for ours, so we can recognise what went on and perhaps prevent future instances with others who show similar signs!

the victims family Need to know these objects are out of harms way forever & not have to worry about others having to go through what they have, anyone crossing the line & resorting to murder should be removed from society by whatever means & it should be permanent !

Absolutely, especially the psychotic ones! I have not advocated letting anyone out!

Once again I repeat nobody is in the position to second guess these people until the event, then it's too late , so that being the case remove them totally so they can never cause pain & grief to anyone other than themselves again!!

Yes as I said earlier, this type of offender is most dangerous due to his psychotic behaviour and therefore to remove them and keep them there may be the most appropriate course of action.

AND if we learn why he did what he did, what circumstances preceded the murder, then we may be able to recognise similarities in others and so prevent future murder by other potential offenders. Getting to know why something happened, what led to the event, how we could recognise the danger signs and how we could prevent future occurances in others is called UNDERSTANDING!

It is a TOOL not an act of sympathy!

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[saasher2012]

Not all murderers boast about what they are going to do, not all show signs of their twisted minds, I'm afraid the only way to study & understand is at the expense of their victims,
I quite clearly explained about the do gooders who allow through their study & understanding which goes quite some way in the release of these objects!
If you read through the board you will see the poster who said these things & it's clearly publicised about such cases.
I can't quote you I haven't the capabilities on this equipment, I rely on reading back!.
In an ideal world we would be able to spot these misfits, we neither live in an ideal world nor do we have enough knowledge of the human mind nor the capabilities to fathom the criminally insane, no amount of study & understanding will prevent other like minded people from achieving their goal!!

[bankhaunter]

In an ideal world we would be able to spot these misfits, we neither live in an ideal world nor do we have enough knowledge of the human mind nor the capabilities to fathom the criminally insane,

Which is why we should try to gain that knowledge so we can benefit from it.

no amount of study & understanding will prevent other like minded people from achieving their goal!!

Why not? If no attempt is made, it can be guaranteed it won't be prevented in the future.

[tommy.irene]

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/david-kalac-4chan-murder-killer-4578352Killer strangled girlfriend then posted pictures of naked body on 4chan image-sharing website

[lambsy_uk]

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saasher2012 wrote:
Not all murderers boast about what they are going to do, not all show signs of their twisted minds, I'm afraid the only way to study & understand is at the expense of their victims,

I don't understand how studying them can only be at the victim's expense, can you explain please?

Of course not all murderers boast but then not all murderers have such twisted minds. There are however cases where the murderer showed signs of their twisted minds prior to their crime; if we could learn to recognise these signs we could prevent murders by those of a similar lik.

I quite clearly explained about the do gooders who allow through their study & understanding which goes quite some way in the release of these objects!

I'm sure studying and understanding does not have to involve release!

If you read through the board you will see the poster who said these things & it's clearly publicised about such cases.

Yes there are too many cases where people have murdered again after release, but I am not advocating release, just efforts to understand. Efforts that may lead to future prevention in other cases.

In an ideal world we would be able to spot these misfits, we neither live in an ideal world nor do we have enough knowledge of the human mind nor the capabilities to fathom the criminally insane,

Which is precisely why we need to study them!

no amount of study & understanding will prevent other like minded people from achieving their goal!!

I disagree; if people had taken notice of his behaviour I believe the possible outcome could have been pre-empted and perhaps stopped! He could perhaps have been recieving support in a mental institution having committed no crime rather than the circumstances we now have. Instead of a victim and murderer perhaps we could have had neither!

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[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@bankhaunter wrote:

 If the lengthy sentence stops just one other teen acting out his or her fantasy, all well and good. 

I'm not saying he shouldn't have had a long sentence but it won't stop others, there is little evidence to show longer sentences for any crime act as a deterrent and in the case of this particular person they weren't bothered by the prospect of prison.

This individual may be at the pinnacle of anti social behaviour which runs right down to the noisy neighbour that doesn't see anything wrong with playing music at full volume at 2.00 am and refuses to stop doing it, it's only a matter of degree.

If we do not attempt to understand why such individuals behave in that manner, we won't find a way of avoiding it and it will just continue.

Unfortunately like with so many other problems, there is little money in preventative research/action, a mentally ill person can tell people or even the police they feel they are going to commit a violent act and no action is or can be taken until it's too late.

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I agree entirely. 

I suppose I just hope some good will come from so many lives needlessly shattered by this one act that took seconds to commit.

[saasher2012]

I've already explained.
But they are released that's the point!
Same as above!
I've already explained!
Once again I repeat, he boasted to friends not a professional , how on earth were they to know it wasn't just a boast!!
We're just going round in circles here , let's agree to disagree & leave it at that,
Thanks for an intersting debate Lambsy! I enjoyed it.😀

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

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@saasher2012 wrote:
Not all murderers boast about what they are going to do, not all show signs of their twisted minds, I'm afraid the only way to study & understand is at the expense of their victims,

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Surely it is more a betrayal of the victim to just close the "case" and ignore any lessons that could be learned?  Surely by doing that they really did die in vain?  No reason, no point, no hope of preventing someone else being fatally attacked in similar cirs?  How is it at the victim's expense to attempt to understand what makes a person kill?

[saasher2012]

Because as I have repeatedly said , they don't always show any signs, therefore they can only be studied after they have murdered someone, I'm sure that will be a comfort to her relatives that she died for no reason so that her murderer can be studied!!!!.

[evoman3957]

Fermel Parlee (Jackson gang: [after Bean shoots Bad Bob in the back] You call that sportin'? It weren't a real standup fight.

Judge Roy Bean: Standup? I laid down to steady my aim.

Fermel Parlee (Jackson gang: Well, I mean he never had a chance.

Judge Roy Bean: Not at all. Never did, never would have. I didn't ask him to come here. I don't abide giving killers a chance. He wants a chance, let him go someplace else.

If do-gooders and the understanding types, what to be that way........fine..........but they should understand that potentially they take chances with OTHER peoples lives. I'd execute them and NEVER take the chance that they would EVER kill again. I have the right to gamble with my own life, but NOT with other peoples.

[**caution**opinion_ahead]

OK.  Let's do nothing.  Let's just all rant and rave and bay for revenge when these things happen, and then sit back and wait till the next time.  Let's not see the complexity.  Let's make it all black and white and simple and childlike.  Let's just puff ourselves up as the law-abiding ones and disregard all the ways in which things can go wrong for others.  Why should it concern us?  We aren't in that position. 

Great!  Now we have easy decisions.  Evil or good, nothing in between.  No need for discussion or debate.  All sorted.

[cee-dee]

All this "understanding" and "study" gets absolutely nowhere.

We see men (it's usually men) who repeatedly assault women and they're repeatedly let out on bail where they do the same thing again, repeated several times over. Why is that? Because do-gooders have ensured that it's "wrong" to lock 'em up first off.

Now let us say that someone (anyone) decided that they'd "report" what that teen had been saying and writing? Who would they report it to and what action do you think might have been taken? OK, so it's conjecture but on past performances it's always turned out that "nothing can be done" until he actually does something.

Don't you think it's absolutely sickening that the police waste loads of time and effort (not to mention the cost of it) apprehending ne'er-do-wells only to see them let off virtually scott-free time and time again so what chance would there be for anything to be done about that boy?

"He's threatened to kill his teacher" and "He's got some sort of fixation about her". So?????

"Now look here Will, that's not nice saying that, don't be a naughty boy, go and sit down and behave there's a good lad".

No matter how much you rant and rave, nothing will be done because before anything can be done, many, many years of work by liberal (with a small "L") do-gooders will have to be undone first.