Question Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund in Selling on eBay DND

Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

hjennerway — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:26:04 GMT

I sold an apple watch series 4 a few weeks ago. It was listed as "excellent condition", used. The buyer messaged me after winning the auction to all say he didn't have time to check the photos properly but could see there were a few scratches from the pics. I confirmed this via message - that there were a few surface scratches but no deep ones - you have to hold the watch up to the light to see them and they're not visible with every day use.

I received £170 for the item and paid £7.50 to post it out the next day via special delivery. The buyer opened a case against me on receipt stating it was SNAD and that it had "many scratches" which is not the case. I refused the refund, eBay decided in his favour anyway and today they issued his refund. I've removed all funding sources from PayPal and eBay and transferred the money to my bank account so I think it's safe.

I disagree with the decision, but for an easy life, was/am willing to refund the amount, minus the postage and PayPal fees, which I cannot reclaim. I've spoken to two eBay reps today and emailed customer service 5 times explaining that the item I received back is actually more scratches - as though he scratched it out of spite and that I'm not willing to pay the postage or PayPal fees as I can't claim these back. The first rep said to send him an invoice (I said this was unlikely to work, and he subsequently messaged me explaining the issue was between me and eBay). The second rep was completely unhelpful and I've had varying advice via email.

I'm really out of options at this point and I have three issues:

1. The item WAS as described, and that without an objective list of criteria to define "excellent", everyone's interpretation is different. I'm not aware of such a list despite asking customer support. Excellent to me is "charger, straps etc included, works perfectly, screen not cracked or significantly damaged"

2. The item was more scratched upon its return

3. Paying the postage fees and PayPal fees will leave me £12.57 out of pocket.

I've been an eBay member for over 10 years and after this, there is no way I'd ever sell anything ever again. I've explained the history many times to various reps and the worst I've been threatened with so far is a debt collector. I don't fancy having a debt collector turn up and having to explain to them. I hoped my reputation and history would count for something. ☹️

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

tobiasd4 — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:36:09 GMT

Sorry to say, but you did this all wrong.

Ebay never see the item, but always believe buyer so no point refusing case or as you found, you have to repay money & item is not returned to you.

Even if you empty your paypal & bank account, ebay will send collection agents to recover the debt & close your ebay account.

It seems unfair, but we all agreed to it when using ebay.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

ruby*tuesday — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:37:05 GMT

After 10 years you must know the Risk of Selling on here. You have already Paid the PayPal fees. PayPal would have taken that when your Buyer Paid. EBay will send the Debt Collectors in. If you had willingly accepted the Return the Buyer may not have damaged the Watch. EBay will also charge you the Final Value Fees. You will have also given yourself a Damaging Defect by not accepting the Return.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

hjennerway — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:47:13 GMT

The item was sold in good faith, assuming that the buyer would pay me, I'd pay the post office and eBay would take a cut, I have no issue with that. At no point did I agree to pay the cost of return postage if eBay decided to reverse the payment. How is it deemed acceptable for someone to buy something, return it and ask the seller to pay all fees related to shipping? It's common for companies to charge a "restocking fee" even, as well as the return postage.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

*guinevere* — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:51:00 GMT

It would have been so much simpler for you to have accepted the return and thereby getting your selling fees credited. Ebay would have returned your fees if only you had accepted the return and issued a timely refund.

Now you have lost your selling fees, ended up with a scratched watch and an account defect.

What a shame when it could all have been avoided.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

tobiasd4 — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:53:18 GMT

As buyer claimed not as described, why should they be out of pocket, this is what MBG says,
as said, not fair to sellers, but that's ebay.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

hjennerway — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:53:26 GMT

But I stated "no returns", and the reason for returning the item was invalid, as it actually was exactly as described, in used condition with minor scratches. I know it's not the buyers issues, but the first time it was listed, the original winning bidder didn't pay due to "buying it from another seller".

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

tobiasd4 — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:57:45 GMT

"Used but in excellent condition."
This is what you said in description,but in your question you admitted there were scratches,
Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
Had you handled case properly you would have item back to resell.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

*guinevere* — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:01:53 GMT

@tobiasd4 Well spotted. The OP's description doesn't mention any scratches.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

ruby*tuesday — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:03:10 GMT

If you didn't Open an Unpaid Item Case for the Previous Purchase Ebay will Invoice you the Final Value Fees there too! Stating "No Returns" is just for a Change of Mind Return. Is no good applying that when a Buyer claims "Not As Described" EBay find in the Buyers favour as they are covered by the EBay Money Back Guarantee. Sellers aren't. You have made the situation a whole lot worse for yourself.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

hjennerway — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:10:56 GMT

My point is that "excellent condition" to means that everything's included, the charger, strap and it works. It's listed as used and the buyer admitted before paying that they could see there were minor scratches, which is why they messaged me to ask about the condition. I was upfront about the surface scratches. If there's no objective list of criteria used to assess the condition, how can they make a decision to say he's right and I'm wrong? A different bidder asked for closer photos before placing a bid, which I happily sent and he ended up choosing not to bid. The fact is that after fulfilling my end of the deal and sending the watch in good faith, I'm now expected to pay all of the associated fees, despite having to refund the full amount.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

hjennerway — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:15:15 GMT

It's their word against mine, and if there are no objective criteria to say what constitutes "good/excellent/working" etc, how can they prove that it's SNAD?

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

*guinevere* — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:18:51 GMT

Ebay NEVER see the item in question.so they favour the buyer because ebay needs buyers more than they need sellers. The whole resolution process is automated so no human being looks at any of the cases.
That's the way it works .

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

red_magpie — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:25:55 GMT

Many sellers, like yourself, have sold on eBay for years without realising the risks until a sale goes wrong.

EBay's money back guarantee policy is to support the buyer unless they can determine that the item was as described. As they don't even see it, and have no idea what the buyer received or what condition it was in, it's almost a foregone conclusion that they will disregard anything the seller says, and enforce a refund.

One seller sent us what is reportedly eBay's reply, which sums up the situation perfectly: "As we didn't see the original item that you sent to the buyer and we didn't see the item the buyer returned to you, we are not in a position to take sides in these situations and verify who has the valid complaint". As previously mentioned, eBay's idea of not taking sides where they don't know who has the valid complaint is to make the seller refund the buyer.

What I think is particularly scandalous is that, even although eBay admits they don't know whose claim is correct, if the seller contests the case eBay penalises them with an account defect just for trying to put their side.

Incidentally, what do you imagine would have happened if the buyer had kept the watch you sent them, and returned a junk watch instead? Many sellers who have allegedly been in this situation have told us that eBay ignored their complaints, and enforced a refund anyway.

EBay as become an absurdly unsafe place to sell anything of value.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

tobiasd4 — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:34:05 GMT

You are not helping your case by admitting that there were scratches when you said excellent condition.
Most of us agree ebay is biased towards buyers,
you can argue all you want with them, but you won't win.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

*knight-rider* — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:56:34 GMT

`It's their word against mine`

Exactly and no disrespect, but you could be just as untruthful as the buyer, ebay doesn`t know that and never will, so if a buyer says an item is damaged, ebay has to accept that and can`t possibly inspect every item returned, it`s just as easy for a seller to try and get out of refunding as it is for a buyer to abuse the returns process.

reference you transfering your funds to your bank account, your wasting your time, because ebay will refund the buyer, your account will go into negative balance and they WILL chase you for it and involve bailiffs 🙂
i have to say and this has been my advice for i don`t know how long, don`t sell anything on this site your not happy to lose, because eventually, you will get a situation like this, i don`t care how careful a seller is!

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

hjennerway — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 05:53:43 GMT

Thanks for the detailed reply. I’m really not bothered about a defect or negative feedback. There’s no way I’d ever consider eBay as a sales platform ever again after this ridiculous claim.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

rusticrye — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:41:04 GMT

Ebay have no idea what you actually sent, or what condition it was in when sent, as they were not present when sent or received, so have no choice but to accept a buyer's word for it when they claim Not As Described, as per their Money Back Guarantee. They cannot get into disputes between you and a buyer. Only a judge can decide if a buyer is a liar or scammer.

You agreed to comply with the MBG when you registered your account. If you dig your heels in and refuse to offer refund on return, Ebay will either force you to pay for a returns label, or they will force the refund without the need for return. You will also have a damaging defect slapped on your account for failing to comply.

This may sound unfair, but it's the fairest it can possibly be. The MBG is a very good thing (although you may not think that at present) as it gives buyers the confidence to shop with you and every other Ebay seller. Without it, you'd be lucky to sell anything at all. In fact, without it, Ebay would no longer exist.

You have to refund on receipt, and then report the buyer to Ebay for abusing the MBG by fraudulently claiming Not As Described (via the 'report' button on your ‘leave feedback’ page). A few of those from different sellers, and their account will soon be toast. And add their Ebay ID and PayPal email address to your Blocked Bidders List so they can’t darken your doorway again.

You can then deal with the buyer outside of Ebay as follows:

Send them a PayPal invoice to cover your losses, giving them 7 days to send cleared payment or you will be taking legal action and reporting them to Action Fraud (the police's online fraud unit).

If payment is not received within that timeframe, send them a 'before action' letter by Signed For post, giving them 7 days from receipt to make full and cleared payment, or you will report them to Action Fraud, and take them to Small Claims court to recover your money and all court and other costs.

If payment is still not received (unlikely, as this is generally enough to put the fear of god into small-time fraudsters), take them to Small Claims court if you wish. Very easy to do, and the process can be started online.

@hjennerway

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

hjennerway — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:48:29 GMT

This is really helpful. I feel like both the seller and I are sure we're right, hence my frustration about the lack of objective criteria. I don't even have their postal address as they used a collection point, so the only thing I have is an email and a name.

Re: Fraudulent Return and Forced Refund

*guinevere* — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:29:22 GMT

I was under the impression the OP received the item back and is now £12.57 out of pocket. Why not cut your losses and move on? After adding the buyer's ID to your blocked list of course.