topic Re: re: Amazon panorama prog in The Round Table

re: Amazon panorama prog

who_1976 — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 06:52:59 GMT

Just wondering what people thought about the Amazon Panorama programme on BBC1 the other night?

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

theborrowers07 — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:46:50 GMT

I was really shocked at the conditions. My son has been working there for a few weeks and he has been complaining to me every night about the conditions tbh I thought as he was just a teenager he wasn't enjoying real life and hard graft.

Contract was for 40hrs first day was told he would have to do compulsory overtime so hours up to 50 the third day its been moved to 55hours a week.

I understand with this economic climate many people would like to think they would jump at the chance of work never mind an extra 15hours overtime however with travelling time he has to rise at 4am and does not get home until 9pm he then can not sleep due to the bleeping noises they have to endure all day. I always thought this looked a bright and cheerful place of work but not now.

I also do not agree with the government part funding the building of Amazon as they are not employing permanent positions of employment just short time contracts when needed!

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

crumple001 — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:07:36 GMT

mind boggling.......

http://twistedsifter.com/2012/12/inside-amazons-chaotic-storage-warehouses/

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

who_1976 — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 14:33:01 GMT

I must admit was disturbed me was the point system-if you are off ill and you get 1 and get 3 you are then relieved of duty aka the boot. People get ill it's called being a human-to lost a job if you get a virus is beyond the pale. Btw I am not aligned to anyone just don't like their business model. It stinks.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

theborrowers07 — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:04:25 GMT

As my son agreed to work 4days 10hour shifts. Now they have changed the amount of hours and days he can not get there on time on a saturday as there is not a bus service running that early so he will be getting a point off the next 3 saturday shifts. He has explained to them but they already know this as he is not the only one, even so he will be sacked by xmas. They want him to work boxing day then sack him. lovely.

This is allowing my son some spends for xmas and I am proud the fact that he has seen it through really dont think I could. His feet are blistered and constant back pain he has got up early doors walked 2mile to catch two busses only to be sacked at xmas.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

who_1976 — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:25:52 GMT

Hence the reason why I think they are the wrong way of running a business by fear and tax avoidance-this government is being screwed by these people.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

vintagebazaars — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:17:17 GMT

Well the way things are going they will not have to worry about working there much longer!

Soon it will ALL be automated! Even the delivery !

YES! Amazon are testing DRONES to deliver items within 30 mins! (read it on bbc1 tech news (on text).

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

ryansbits — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:30:41 GMT

If I look out of the window of the third floor of my home (where I work, it's a loft conversion) I can see a massive fast growing fulfillment centre belonging to a particularly famous British online fashion retailer (four letters, beginning with 'A', has a marketplace).

Every single order globally is dispatched from that fulfillment centre. I was forced to work there for a couple of months after Google Penguin killed my online business.

This business has been called "ethical" by some (made me cringe). It was exactly how I would imagine an Amazon fulfillment centre to be, and when I watch the Panorama program (maybe tonight if I can spare half an hour) I suspect it will all seem familiar to me.

It was my experience there and the knowledge that I'd migrated to an economically depressed area, where most jobs are in these fulfillment centres (the river have one nearby too) that led me to gamble my savings on this eBay business.

It was depressing and the people that I talked to all felt trapped. I was also on a 'zero hour' contract, and they trap you by having a bonus system which only pays out if you are there long enough to win a permanent contract (that bonus would be the difference between minimum wage and a living wage).

It was truly backbreaking, staff turnover was huge, but I quit because I was concerned for my health. I saw people collapsing - and guess what..... they wouldn't call an ambulance because they didn't want any attention from the HSE.

I now refuse to purchase from that business. It is likely however that all major online businesses operate in a similar way, although another popular British retailer (four letters, beginning with N and ending in T) pay well over the living wage in this economically depressed region and their employees work circa-30 hours in the warehouse, so they can't all be as bad as Amazon.

Unfortunately this works hand in hand with the free market and wanting things cheap though. If Amazon can store and dispatch things for peanuts then competitors have to be able to do the same to compete on price, and if they don't then customers will choose Amazon - the cheapest option.

So it is us who fuel this epidemic of sweatshops, by wanting things as cheap as possible.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

ryansbits — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:28:08 GMT

"Soon it will ALL be automated! Even the delivery!"

Those drone deliveries will clearly be extortionate though, and the prototype shows that they can only do one delivery at a time! Bet that will be very expensive to the customer. Still, great if you have forgotten a birthday present and need something immediately.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

crystal46island — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 23:05:12 GMT

As I used to work in the Storage and Material Handling industry for nearly 20 years and my husband actually designed similar, if not bigger, warehouses for Ikea, Co-op and MOD the warehouse was actually fairly well designed. Except for one thing they could have got a faster input if they had teams working just one floor rather than having to put trollies in the lift and staff walking up. It is a well known ploy in the picking industry that managers work out what the average pick time is and then add 15% - it has been going on for years, it is nothing new.

If I had a choice of working at Amazon 4 days a week in the dry and the warmth with a trolley or a postman with a bag over my shoulder in the wet, snow or cold I know which I would choose.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

cosmeticgems — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:42:59 GMT

i have worked for minimum wage at a warehouse and it was the same for me..

if your not there on time even a minute late they sent you home ( no pay )

i worked for an agency that provided for the ware house (they text you every day and if you didn't answer the text to say you were available before 6am (shift was 7am - 6pm ) then you would not be able to work.

sometimes you turned up for work and they sent you home (no pay) because they had miscalculated how many pickers they needed.

fastest pickers were texted to come in for a shift next day, slowest did not get asked in next day, if you were amongst slowest pickers 3 times in a week they didn't ask you back in again, (lost job) so everyone was racing around trying too pick as many orders as possible worrying about there job, often dangerously.

there was a 3 strink rule and if you were seen standing still, talking, late from break or work, not seen to have hit your picking quota 3 times within 3 months you lost your job.

very few pickers got a full weeks work, everyone was on some sort of benefit too top up there wages , family tax credit, working tax credit etc (funded by tax payer).

there were about 50-60 pickers per shift with 6 teamleaders and 2 supervisors walking around telling people to work faster all the time, atitude by teamleaders/supervisors was to talk to every one like they were .

they used to make a note of the fastest picker and make that the target for all, so if someone picked fast they increase the number of picks they expected everyone to pick.

the guns we used to scan locations let them know where everyone was, and if you stopped even for a moment they were down on you wanting to know why.

toilet breaks were timed, you had to go past security to go to the toilet and they took your numbet and checked how long you were in toilet and how often.

i was there 6 months and i saw pickers lose it and hit teamleaders/ supervisors and security many times, people were cracking up over the presure, it was terrible, even during breaks teamleaders would come into the grubby canteen they pervided warning people they need to pick up the pace and work quicker.

even the ecanning guns played up from time to time and when you took it to teamleader/superviser they always thought you had broken it or done it on purpose and would warn you to be more careful or else.

im a pacifist mild mannered sort of guy but at times i nearly walked out i just had enough.

there were 3 shifts in the warehouse morning, evening, and night shift and the teamleaders and supervisors on each shift were always trying to out do their opposite numbers on other hifts by trying to get there pickers to pick more orders.

i must of seen 1000 people come and go whilst i was there, i put up with it because work is hard to find in the area i live, i'd sooner work than claim benefits, and i have pride and hated the thought of being out of work.

i have seen so many accidents, people hurting themselves, sprains injurys etc whilst i was there and all they would do was get rid of them so they couldent claim.

the government paints this picture of lazy benefits scroungers (and some maybe) but... they say the minimum living wage should be £7+ but allow companies to pay people below that ? so the tax payer should fund people in the way of tax credits? why are they allowing these 0 hour contracts?, how can a person with a family on benefits take a 0 hour contract he need to know he can provide for his family? shouldent companies at least guaratee an employee at least 30 hours if they want them?

I ended up leaving the warehouse job as i just couldent keep up with what was expected ( i did try ), and now am trying with help from my family my hand as an eBay sole-trader, i enjoy being self employed and trading on eBay i'm just managing to make a meagre living but its better than working in that warehouse.

and back to amazon (i mean with all there tax avoidance you'd think they could afford to pay people a decent wage) i won't out of principle ever buy of amazon i just hate the bearmoth it has become.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

star-action-figures — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 01:26:12 GMT

@who_1976 wrote:
I must admit was disturbed me was the point system-if you are off ill and you get 1 and get 3 you are then relieved of duty aka the boot. People get ill it's called being a human-to lost a job if you get a virus is beyond the pale. Btw I am not aligned to anyone just don't like their business model. It stinks.

To be honest a lot of the issues in the programme I thought were badly presented and very one sided. As soon as i saw the "undercover cop" out jogging at the start of the programme, I knew where it was going, and didn't think there was that much wrong with it the majority of it. Sure its hard work, but I think as a nation we have become too soft. At this time of year, I can be in the warehouse 8am to midnight, 6 sometimes 7 days a week. Its hard work and I am handsomely rewarded for it. Fair enough the pay at Amazon is low, but for the first few years of my online working I hardly earnt a penny. As my old nan used to say, a bit of hard work never hurt anyone.

But losing a point which leads to the sack if you are ill? That's unacceptable IMO. Is it even legal? I could see why they may not pay a temp staff member if they are ill, but to sack them for it. I'm disappointed the programme didn't push Amazon harder on this issue.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

ryansbits — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 01:59:44 GMT

"But losing a point which leads to the sack if you are ill? That's unacceptable IMO. Is it even legal?"

The majority of the staff at these places are on temporary zero-hour contracts are employed via an agency. As Amazon would have a service contract with the agency and not an employment contract with you they can terminate the contract at any time.

We live in an age of agencies and zero hour contracts. Temporary staff do not have the automatic right to file an unfair dismissal case (or perhaps after one year, can't remember exactly). But they can sack you when they want, for whatever they want.

You make it sound like people have become inherently lazy, don't worry my relatives did too when I jacked in a 'picking' position. I'd suggest going to do it before judging - these places are seemingly exempt from almost all employment laws, do not allow union representation of any sort, and they physically and mentally break people.

I worked on the fifth picking floor (top floor) of a place very similar to the one depicted on Amazon and the temperature up there was unbelievable. People fainting and collapsing as they don't dare take a break, for a 5 minute drink of water will put them under the target required to keep their job and they have kids and rent to pay.

I saw a woman faint and unconcious for around fifteen minutes (yes, really). No ambulance was called. Instead their priority was cordoning off the area to ensure that other employees didn't witness it and refuse to work.

I knew somebody who declared in their application that they were epileptic. A few weeks later they had a fit. They were told not to return. Two different major national unions were turned away at the door in a one month period. (refuse to deal with any unions).

You hurt yourself at work then you just get dropped. No sick pay, just told not to come back.

People of colour were routinely searched daily. I was searched just twice in six weeks.

And that is the warehouse of a major UK online retailer, in the three years that it has been open it has had a staff turnover of 5:1. It employs circa 3000 people and three times that have been in and been out (once you leave you aren't allowed back, ever).

Such is the reputation that this warehouse has gained in three years that the local job centre (even under this Tory government) refuses to advertise the positions.

This warehouse was also built with the benefit of a massive grant from the public purse. A government sponsored return to the 19th century.

The word locally is that Amazon is worse (there is one 15 miles away). If Amazon really is worse, then I pity anybody who has to work for them.

"a bit of hard work never hurt anyone" - The thing is, it does. It does if you are set unrealistic targets and sacrifice your health to try and meet them, and then get sacked when you injure yourself (people actually run around with those huge metal trolleys to reach the targets, and getting rammed in the back of the leg with one of them would complete wipe you out for weeks, nobody is ever told to stop running with a 150kg metal trolley because that is what is required to exceed the targets that they set).

I don't want to see this in the UK and neither should you. Although most of us would be hypocritical in our criticism, as no doubt most of us sell stuff which has been produced in countries with slack employment regulations and no doubt none of us can audit our supply chains. For all I know some of my low cost stud stuff could be being made by 10 year olds working 18 hours a day for a bowl of rice.

Most of us look for the best price also. So society has to take the blame really. Amazon gets picked up on quite a bit, but many other major retailers operate very similar systems.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

star-action-figures — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 02:14:11 GMT

@uglypugtrading wrote:
"But losing a point which leads to the sack if you are ill? That's unacceptable IMO. Is it even legal?"

The majority of the staff at these places are on temporary zero-hour contracts are employed via an agency. As Amazon would have a service contract with the agency and not an employment contract with you they can terminate the contract at any time.

We live in an age of agencies and zero hour contracts. Temporary staff do not have the automatic right to file an unfair dismissal case (or perhaps after one year, can't remember exactly). But they can sack you when they want, for whatever they want.

You make it sound like people have become inherently lazy, don't worry my relatives did too when I jacked in a 'picking' position. I'd suggest going to do it before judging - these places are seemingly exempt from almost all employment laws, do not allow union representation of any sort, and they physically and mentally break people.

I worked on the fifth picking floor (top floor) of a place very similar to the one depicted on Amazon and the temperature up there was unbelievable. People fainting and collapsing as they don't dare take a break, for a 5 minute drink of water will put them under the target required to keep their job and they have kids and rent to pay.

I saw a woman faint and unconcious for around fifteen minutes (yes, really). No ambulance was called. Instead their priority was cordoning off the area to ensure that other employees didn't witness it and refuse to work.

I knew somebody who declared in their application that they were epileptic. A few weeks later they had a fit. They were told not to return. Two different major national unions were turned away at the door in a one month period. (refuse to deal with any unions).

You hurt yourself at work then you just get dropped. No sick pay, just told not to come back.

People of colour were routinely searched daily. I was searched just twice in six weeks.

And that is the warehouse of a major UK online retailer, in the three years that it has been open it has had a staff turnover of 5:1. It employs circa 3000 people and three times that have been in and been out (once you leave you aren't allowed back, ever).

Such is the reputation that this warehouse has gained in three years that the local job centre (even under this Tory government) refuses to advertise the positions.

This warehouse was also built with the benefit of a massive grant from the public purse. A government sponsored return to the 19th century.

The word locally is that Amazon is worse (there is one 15 miles away). If Amazon really is worse, then I pity anybody who has to work for them.

"a bit of hard work never hurt anyone" - The thing is, it does. It does if you are set unrealistic targets and sacrifice your health to try and meet them, and then get sacked when you injure yourself (people actually run around with those huge metal trolleys to reach the targets, and getting rammed in the back of the leg with one of them would complete wipe you out for weeks, nobody is ever told to stop running with a 150kg metal trolley because that is what is required to exceed the targets that they set).

I don't want to see this in the UK and neither should you. Although most of us would be hypocritical in our criticism, as no doubt most of us sell stuff which has been produced in countries with slack employment regulations and no doubt none of us can audit our supply chains. For all I know some of my low cost stud stuff could be being made by 10 year olds working 18 hours a day for a bowl of rice.

Most of us look for the best price also. So society has to take the blame really. Amazon gets picked up on quite a bit, but many other major retailers operate very similar systems.

I agree with most of what you say I really do. However to me the way the programme was presented was poor. It ws set up as a super fit jogger couldn't cope with the strains of walking during his shift, so if he couldn't do it, who could? The union rep on there, to me, almost resented the fact people had to work.

I think the program came across poorly.

If the conditions are truely that bad (and I am not suggesting they are not) just in my opinion the program did not show this, then surely some government department should be involved.

New laws are clearly needed you would think, to police these new super centres.

As I say, the thing that stuck out to me was the illness situation. Truely shocking IMO and if this is allowed, then clearly something in not right with the law makers of this country. No offense intended.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

ryansbits — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 02:31:52 GMT

I do believe that even a senior Tory minister raised the issue of zero hour contracts recently, I think they are being looked at.

But the rise of the zero hour contract has coincided with a rise in the number of people considered to be in employment (& decrease in 'long term unemployed', for a short stint temping takes you off the claimant count temporarily), and Cameron and Osbourne like to use that statistic to try and present a picture of a recovering economy (we all know that this economy is stagnant with price inflation running at far higher than wage inflation).

Unfortunately this government doesn't have much to cling on to, zero hour contracts is serving them pretty well because it allows them to sex up their numbers.

With a bit of luck Labour might make a big deal out of this in their next election manifesto. I'm not a huge fan of their party but we are going to see them in government so we might as well hope that they do some good amidst economy-wrecking and having weird ideological in-fights and calling themselves somethingites or thingyites.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

ryansbits — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 03:00:56 GMT

Zero hour contracts are probably a bad thing for the economy by the way.

Take away job security and you take away consumer confidence. People won't buy a house, or a car on credit, or be willing to put a bit on their credit card.

1 million people on zero hour contracts in the UK.

In a country which is so reliant on the housing market and credit for growth..... that's not good news.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

star-action-figures — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:49:09 GMT

@uglypugtrading wrote:
I do believe that even a senior Tory minister raised the issue of zero hour contracts recently, I think they are being looked at.

But the rise of the zero hour contract has coincided with a rise in the number of people considered to be in employment (& decrease in 'long term unemployed', for a short stint temping takes you off the claimant count temporarily), and Cameron and Osbourne like to use that statistic to try and present a picture of a recovering economy (we all know that this economy is stagnant with price inflation running at far higher than wage inflation).

Unfortunately this government doesn't have much to cling on to, zero hour contracts is serving them pretty well because it allows them to sex up their numbers.

With a bit of luck Labour might make a big deal out of this in their next election manifesto. I'm not a huge fan of their party but we are going to see them in government so we might as well hope that they do some good amidst economy-wrecking and having weird ideological in-fights and calling themselves somethingites or thingyites.

I'm not going to get into a political debate, but I will so one thing regarding your comments. Under which government wree grants issued to huge corportations like Amazon to build there warehouses, and under which government did these shocking working conditions begin under? That is all.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

vintagebazaars — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:24:19 GMT

Also remember these condition seem 'harsh' in the UK. but with the flood of immigrants comming to the country they are more than happy to work there and receive excellent pay, from where they originally come from.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

ryansbits — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:32:00 GMT

I've just pretty much told you that I don't support the Tory party or the Labour party, so there was no attempt from me to get into a political debate (I can't stand any of them).

I don't know the answer to the question, do you?

I do know however that the Tory party has not spoken out against them, and the current Miliband led shadow cabinet have done. So whatever the history, I will stay in the now.

Re: re: Amazon panorama prog

star-action-figures — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:51:46 GMT

@uglypugtrading wrote:
I've just pretty much told you that I don't support the Tory party or the Labour party, so there was no attempt from me to get into a political debate (I can't stand any of them).

I don't know the answer to the question, do you?

I do know however that the Tory party has not spoken out against them, and the current Miliband led shadow cabinet have done. So whatever the history, I will stay in the now.

Off course Miliband going to say that. Have you not notice the opposition disagree with any policy the in power party has? He'll say anything to get power back, and no disrespect, judging by your comments, you'll fall for it.

Labour nearly ruinined online trade and sent huge companies to Jersey to explot a now closed vat loophole. The VAT loophole is still being explyed by ebay and Amazon, but work it on to close these.

Labour opened the borders for European worker to come and work on the cheap. I bet if Amazon filled their warehouse with East Europeans, their wouldn't any complaints from those workers.

Labour encourged these big factory warehouses run by companies paying no UK tax. But worry not, the ex-leader of the working mans party is now a multimillionaire, adding millions to his account every year, all on the back of running the country into the ground. So anything the Labour party have to stay positively on the subject, I would take with a very large gain of salt.

Stay in the now by all means. But please don't make the mistake of forgetting the past!