topic Re: The train now departing is in The Round Table

The train now departing is

fallen-archie — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 12:43:22 GMT

Running at 200% of capacity, I am and always have been fascinated by trains, from my early years watching the stanier Pacific’s charging up and down the west coast main line, to the arrival of diesels and then electrification! All of that happened under a nationalised railway system as did the Beeching axe which saw 1000s of miles of our rail system abandoned. Privatisation has brought with it problems of supply and demand as well as the normal pressures about paying shareholders an acceptable dividend. The ticketing system is flawed and season tickets are now so high that many resort to using cars and starting earlier and earlier. I remember when my annual season ticket into London cost me £900 it is now £3800, mind you we also bought our house for £57000 next door sold recently for £ 478,000, so on that basis the rise in season ticket prices seems reasonable.
Many of the problems come through having a system which is fragmented, the network and infrastructure remain largely in place public hands whilst The train companies Are privately operated. So who is responsible for expanding services and the network? Labour argues that the whole thing should be under public ownership, that as a result investment would be higher as would wages however ticket prices would be lower, sounds good until a decision has to be made about where and when investment should be made, with so many seeking funds from the public purse why would rail be given it above either health or defense? Then of course there is the unholy row that breaks out when investment is planned ie the Elizabeth Line in London and HS2 such schemed are warranted yet they are so expensive.
My view is that private rail can and does work in certain instances, rises in fares that are in line with inflation are justified, however the percentage of increase when above inflation needs to be seen to be improving things. There are also problems regarding the use of guards on trains, with most trains now fitted with cctv, and the monitoring of trains electronically one has to ask the question of why a guard is needed, if as suggested they retrained to become drivers they would earn more money and relieve the shortage of drivers that has caused so many problems. So where do we go next,our overpopulated island is under extreme pressure which won’t improve until we get the Star Trek transport system, beam me up scotty is the way to go, no car parks motorways ripped up to become wildlife corridors, heaven!

Re: The train now departing is

cee-dee — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 14:05:06 GMT

The utopia of nationalised rail transport is unachievable because in effect it's bankrolled by private industry through taxation.

I'm not a nationalist. I see nationalisation as a cheap form of communism! What that means is the elite really do become the elite and everyone else is relegated to the position of (supposedly) equal worker status.

"The State" has a history of bungle this, bungle that, bungle nearly everything so that in the end it all comes from the Costa Fortune.

Although I have been a trade union member (I still have my union cards), that's another thing I'm wary of because of their "job protection" stance.

Businesses should be profitable, if they're not, that's it, the end. Nationalised things get bogged down by idiotic decisions, illconsidered changes made with little redress for those promoting such things coupled with an air of "job-for-life" complacency.

As for HS2? I think that's a very expensive waste of money. The country is "too small". As soon as the train gets up to full speed it'll be time to slow down and stop again. Madness, sheer madness!

Re: The train now departing is

**caution**opinion_ahead — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:03:07 GMT

I agree HS2 is madness. Instead of always trying to get places faster, why not organise business better so less travel is actually needed? In these days of super fast internet, meetings can be held without anyone moving from their desk.

Not sure about guards, Archie. I think a train should have a member a staff to assist passengers, act in an emergency, discourage bad behaviour, fare dodging, etc. We have a lot of people. If we keep doing away with jobs, what employment will be left? Machines can, of course, do lots of things, but humans still have a role to play. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Re: The train now departing is

fallen-archie — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:19:08 GMT

I think HS2has it’s merits not the least of which is freeing up capacity for commuters, however in my opinion it could follow the route of our motorways cantilevered above them, I know it would create disruption in the early stages of construction however it would not require the removal of large tracts of green belt or compulsory purchase of land!
I think that’s what Brunel would have done!

Re: The train now departing is

cee-dee — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 15:58:11 GMT

I don't see how HS2 could "free up capacity"? It seems that all it would do is to move passengers to another "line", a very expensive line anyway. Like I said already, no sooner has a HS train got up to full speed and it's time to slow down again. HS2 will be a massively expensive White Elephant construction project which will run massively over budget, that is, if it ever gets built.

Why on earth do people want to regularly travel long distances? Why don't they obtain work closer to home? If it's less money, well, it's also less travelling time and less cost?

Rather than encouraging travel, I think unnecessary travel should be discouraged.

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**caution**opinion_ahead — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:33:16 GMT

I’m not sure people want to travel a long way to work, but housing issues force them to. That said, it should be discouraged where possible, IMV. Commuting hardly adds to the sum totol of human happiness ... except for transport shareholders, I suppose.

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upthecreekyetagain — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 16:44:35 GMT

Have you been on a train recently? Standing all the way from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston is no fun 😞

The whole network is severely short of capacity - we need new lines not only between London, the Midlands and the North but from East to West as well. If new lines are going to be built then they might just as well be built to the latest specifications.

The idea of building lines above motorways sounds good in principle but the reality is that such plans would disrupt traffic for years and cost the country a fortune - much better to build alongside them where possible and go underground, (like Crossrail), near city centres.

Re: The train now departing is

fallen-archie — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 17:40:06 GMT

I agree with you caution, no one really wants to travel a huge distance to work so it is vital that more housing is provided within urban areas which allow people to live within a sensible distance of their place of work! The Grenfell tragedy has been a bad influence on high rise living but you need to maximise the space created on a small footprint to make it work. Providing adequate safety is installed I don’t see it being an impediment going forward.
I also agree with Creeky on the need to be creative In the way they build additional rail capacity, alongside motorways is fine as is going underground. I would also like to find ways of reducing traffic levels, making people less dependent on their cars because travelling anywhere these days is such a chore

Re: The train now departing is

al**bear — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 07:34:05 GMT

We need the Railways renationalised now - they are a total disaster

We don't need to buy out the companies, we just wait and don't renew franchises, then pick up their rolling stock on the cheap, so getting some of our Tax money they have gobbled up.

Grayling should be Jailed for His wilful actions against network rail, which he wants to fail. Thats why He always blames them for His and Private Rail companies disasters e.g. New Northern rail timetables, they were told by Network Rail, that the system couldn't handle them and that NR didn't have the staff to implement them, they brought them in anyway.

Why should the Tax payer totally subsidise our roads, but not our railways,

good railways take 100ks of people off of our congested road network

Scotrail something we were always proud of, is now a joke. The owners Dutch company Abellio, even told the people back home, that the money taken out of Scotland will help subsise their rail ticket prices in the Netherlands - right now theres over 30 cancelations EVERY day in Central Scotland alone

We the Tax payer made a lot of money from the East Coast line, after it was taken back under Public control, Grayling nearly broke His neck, getting a deal done (at a loss to Us) just to get it back under private owners

Re: The train now departing is

fallen-archie — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 12:07:58 GMT

Oh dear Al, I think you made the wrong comparison using our motorways, they too are a joke and not fit for purpose! It all comes down to investment as is the case everywhere, everyone that has a complaint about anything looks to the government for support ie us, how much do we already pay into the system through direct and indirect taxes, if you want government ie us to pay for everything then where do the government go to borrow money? I am not convinced that we are wealthy enough to do many of the things that we expect, those who are wealthy are also highly mobile so over taxing them may be right in the short term however long term whet do we do. Nationalisation brings with it many problems including the influence of unions who will increasingly become more militant in order to extract the maximum pay for their members, I don’t know what is worse a system which fails because of its structural deficiencies or one that is held to ransom by a union. There is no magic wand, however what I can say with confidence is that things will only get better when we stop moaning and start talking, I do not trust our politicians to make the kind of decisions that are necessary to provide real answers, both front benches are the weakest I have seen in my lifetime bring in some new blood and start deciding for the benefit of all who pays for what and by what means.

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**caution**opinion_ahead — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 13:50:15 GMT

Maybe the answer is private ownership, but with a cap on the amount that can be skimmed off by shareholders and investors. Plus, essential services, eg water, transport, could only be sold off by governments to companies run and owned within the country concerned. Yes, it would reduce the attraction ... but also the likelihood of money being skimmed off and taken out of the country as profit whilst the service concerned is strapped for running/investment costs.

or maybe regional co-operatives could work. Local people would have a stake in local services.

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upthecreekyetagain — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 14:46:09 GMT

The idea of public ownership of vital services such as transport, power, water, food and so on is fine in principle - it falls down though when you look at what that actually means.

Does anyone really think that those voted into Parliament, half of whom have never done a real days work in their life, are really the best people to be in charge of running those businesses- I don’t.

I’m old enough to remember the complete mess that was British Rail, The British Leyland Motor Company, British Steel, British Gas, etc. I remember the over staffing, the under investment, low productivity and decisions based on political need rather than the needs of the customer. I’m not naive enough to believe any of that would change in the case of renationalisation now.

If nationalisation is such a good idea then maybe we should nationalise farming and have a minister deciding what crops should be planted and when - I’m sure that wouldn’t cause any problems.

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**caution**opinion_ahead — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 15:13:11 GMT

*sits on the British Rail memory step with Creeky*

If Labour do renationalise it all, I hope they do not reinstate the former catering standards. I’m still trying to digest a BR sandwich I consumed in 1975!

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joe_bloggs* — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 15:46:12 GMT

"If nationalisation is such a good idea then maybe we should nationalise farming and have a minister deciding what crops should be planted and when - I’m sure that wouldn’t cause any problems."

Most farms couldn't survive withoput a subsidy,either from the EU or our own government

Re: The train now departing is

fallen-archie — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 15:49:05 GMT

Ah yes the days of the BR Buffet🥴 Not a vegan sausage roll in sight, did you ever try the tea, I swear to god it had never seen an Indian tea plantation, although many of the steam engines had wonderfully colonial names like Kholapur, Assam and Hyderabad to name three! The sandwiches were a national disgrace and the Cornish pasties required the assistance of a kango hammer in order to break through the otherwise impenetrable crust, on the up side they did carry a fine range of craft ales like the ill conceived long life, Double Diamond and shandybass, yes indeed those were the days😀

Re: The train now departing is

cee-dee — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 16:16:27 GMT

I never had the pleasure of making many trips by train but I used to have to go to stations in BR days as part of my job but always travelled by road! (Why? Because it was quicker!)

One day I was at Selly Oak station and met, for the first time a coloured man! He was sweeping the platform and just brushed the sweepings straight on to the tracks which were covered in litter!

Also in the Birmingham area was Hockley Goods station/Depot. A massive place, loads of people all mucking about but not seeming to be actually doing anything.

I can't now remember where it was but I once had to go to a BR office, an amazing place seemingly in two parts the "rough" part and the sumptuous part. The thing was, there was nobody there. I had to fix what I'd gone there for and that was that.

My dealings with BR staff were fraught with "couldn't-care-less" attitudes.

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**caution**opinion_ahead — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 16:26:46 GMT

Indeed! BR staff were not customer-orientated, to say the least. In contrast, I went on a train a couple of months ago and had an issue with the machine devouring my return ticket and refusing to spit it back out. Two members of staff were by my side in seconds and could not have been more helpful, dismantling the machine’s innards and searching through dozens of tickets to find mine. I was well impressed.

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upthecreekyetagain — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 16:30:09 GMT

@joe_bloggs* wrote:

"If nationalisation is such a good idea then maybe we should nationalise farming and have a minister deciding what crops should be planted and when - I’m sure that wouldn’t cause any problems."

Most farms couldn't survive withoput a subsidy,either from the EU or our own government

Farms would survive just fine - the subsidies may in the first instance go to the farmer but ultimately it is us, the consumer, who is being subsidised.

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joe_bloggs* — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 16:42:28 GMT

I wonder if the privatised rail companies would survive without aid ?

"Britain’s privatised railways have been getting around £5 billion on average in government support over the last five years. In the last five years of the 1980s—the earliest period we have figures for before privatisation—it was an average of £1.6 billion in today’s money"

https://fullfact.org/economy/government-funding-rail-industry-bbcqt/

Re: The train now departing is

fallen-archie — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 17:18:54 GMT

Have you also seen the year on year growth since privatisation? 65ml journeys made is a fantastic number compared with the past and far exceeds anything achieved by BR! That brings with it huge pressures on rolling stock, much of which has been renewed, and the infrastructure, plus there are costs associated with cross rail and HS2, so given the enormous reduction in the network whilst under state control there has been a fantastic level of growth in the network that remains, wear and tear will take its toll.