topic Re: Gender neutral? in The Round Table

Gender neutral?

cee-dee — Wed, 06 Sep 2017 19:50:33 GMT

Is the World is getting madder? :-

http://news.sky.com/story/school-bans-girls-from-wearing-skirts-as-it-brings-in-gender-neutral-uniform-11023265

Surely the original idea of a school uniform was that the kids should be smart, tidy and to encourage them to be proud of the school they attended?

Later on it was decided that they also had to "conform" and it was claimed that all the kids should be "the same" so that poorer kids shouldn't stand out from the crowd. It led to some expensive uniforms being available from only one or a small number of shops which defeated the object of "poorer kids"?

Now they're on about all kids looking the same and claiming that it would help "transgender" kids? Surely, no matter which way a child had changed, they'd rather dress in the clothes of their chosen gender not blend in to a neutral gender?

Re: Gender neutral?

margaret*e — Wed, 06 Sep 2017 21:45:33 GMT

When my kids were at school, it took years for them to allow girls to wear trousers, it was the last of juniors before they were allowed, then and still now, at senior school they weren't allowed.

Re: Gender neutral?

*devils.advocate* — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 08:44:36 GMT

Personally, yes, I think it's completely mad and totally unnecessary. And someone gets paid a decent salary for thinking this up.

But is it not a contradiction in itself?

It stops a boy wearing a skirt if he wants to - even if it's not indecently short.

How is that fairer for transgender pupils?

Re: Gender neutral?

cee-dee — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 10:00:22 GMT

The transgender issue is complicated. I don't have any doubt that some young people feel they're in the wrong gender. When it "starts" at a very young age, it's quite obvious that it's not due to any issues around them, it's "in" them. I don't know if there's anything in the gene structure to "explain" it. Intersex people are "clearer", the genes got a bit mixed up.

When a young person finally takes the plunge and dresses as the gender they feel they should be rather than the ascribed gender at birth, they surely want to be identified as that gender and others surely want to dress as their gender?

Where's it gonna end? Girls will no longer be able to have long hair? Boys must not have very short hair? The "school haircut" will be compulsory for all? When a girl starts to (cough) "develop" will she no longer be able to have any indications and have to wear something to flatten them?

It's high time this idiotic thinking is given the boot and instead young people are taught how to dress and present themselves to school and have a pride in their school iniform instilled in to them by careful persuasion not heavy-handed compulsion.

Re: Gender neutral?

bankhaunter — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 22:45:36 GMT

I don't see what is wrong with the kids simply having the option.

It's about time the Government stepped in and made schools adopt a reasonable uniform policy to do away with silly unecessary restrictions, like one school that insists buys must wear expensive trousers from one outlet that have the school badge embroidered on them.

Re: Gender neutral?

fallen-archie — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 09:40:41 GMT

We know it's coming so why not just go with the flow, part of modernisation me thinks ultimately we will all wear frocks as a matter of course, men will all grow beards and women will be required to cover up completely even when swimming! Such modesty is becoming of a modern progressive society! Anyway it's Friday which means I'm off to the mosque.

Re: Gender neutral?

vamo48 — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 09:52:17 GMT

Aspects of this do make sense, though to bring in the transgender issue was probably a mistake as parents are not going to like forking out for a different uniform to cater for such a small minority. What always annoyed me the most was having to buy uniforms at one particular shop, and never one with reasonable prices.

Re: Gender neutral?

jd.linklater — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 11:58:07 GMT

This is taken from the Head Teacher's statement on the changes being implemented....

"We have a small but increasing number of transgender students and therefore having the same uniform is important for them"

So once again the majority have to accommodate the wishes of a small minority to show their inclusivity credentials, this is absolutely crazy and completely typical of the times we live in. Respecting gender is all well and good but granting the wishes of a few now means that a much larger number of pupils will now lose the right to wear traditional school uniforms that have been standard for centuries. All totally unnecessary in my opinion.

Re: Gender neutral?

cee-dee — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 12:58:15 GMT

But if someone wishes to be known as a menber of the opposite gender to their ascribed gender at birth, surely they'd wish to be seen in the same sort of clothes worn by others in their "new" gender?

If not, they could have just regarded themselves as the "new opposite" and carried on in their old clothes and old hairstyle?

I don't think they'd want to be "neutral" at all. If a "neutral" uniform had been in force before their change, would they have any need to "announce" their change of gender?

Re: Gender neutral?

bankhaunter — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 15:05:11 GMT

"We have a small but increasing number of transgender students and therefore having the same uniform is important for them"

I suspect that was not the main reason, if it was a reason at all but rather an excuse, there were apparently complaints about the lengths of some girls skirts. Hence making it compulsory and not just giving pupils the choice.

Aren't trousers to some degree gendered anyway?

Re: Gender neutral?

**bustysinclaire** — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 16:08:42 GMT

I am replying to the request for my opinion and not trying to create a debate on the subject of transgeñder and the rights and wrongs morally.

I agree a uniform is a very good thing but I don't agree that gender neutral uniforms should be the rule.

Children are very impressionable at school age so a cumpolsary gender neutral uniform could play a part in influencing a child going through mixed emotions and uncertainties about themselves.

Regardless of the fact that individuals are entitled to their choices children are either born mail or female and should be helped and supported to grow up and mature under "normal" cucumstances.

I personally feel it very irresponsible of adults teachers etc, people that should be teaching and supporting school children, to influence an individual when they are in such a vulnerable time of life.

For those individuals going through certain insecurities and confusing times there should be outside professional mental support and council.

Transgender choices can then be made when an adult.

Re: Gender neutral?

cee-dee — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 18:15:48 GMT

The "neutral" uniform rule has probaly influenced the children, but not positively. It's probably causing them to form a view that adults can be very overbearing, inflexible and lacking in common sense!

As to "waiting" until a dysphoric child becomes an adult can lead to many years of torment, that is, if they survive.

I'm not aware of any convincing research which shows or attempts to prove some genetic "defect" causing gender dysphoria just like there's none for indicating homosexuality.

Before anyone starts....... I'm certainly not of that ilk or "suffering" gender dysphoria. I'm just sympathetic to the cause of GD. I first began to read about the subject many years ago after April Ashley was "outed" by a newspaper which, at the time, totally ruined any chance she had of futhering a career of modelling.

Re: Gender neutral?

**bustysinclaire** — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 18:44:35 GMT

CD,

I wasn't indicating that a child should be made to wait till adulthood.

I just feel school is not the right place for it to be approached or dealt with. It is a serious and very sensitive issue for a child so they need the correct and more proffesionally specific help and support.

I too have a lot of sympathy for people who are genuinely struggling with their identity etc.xx

Re: Gender neutral?

cee-dee — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 18:51:58 GMT

You said :- "Transgender choices can then be made when an adult."

Re: Gender neutral?

**bustysinclaire** — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 20:56:16 GMT

Yes, sorry CD,. I did xx

l'm getting my wires crossed a bit.

I do mean their choice can be made when adult, the processes to get to that though may start in childhood. I believe any councelling, therapy and support should be through mental professionals other than school teachers, nurses etc. So no gender neutral uniform.

I agree no one should be left until adult to have their issues addressed by the correct channels xxx

Re: Gender neutral?

vamo48 — Sat, 09 Sep 2017 12:24:14 GMT

I too have a feeling that skirt lengths came into it. We rolled our skirts over at the top to shorten them when I was at high school, and I'm a grandmother now, so nothing has changed! Yes, it's true that trousers for boys and trousers for girls are different.

Re: Gender neutral?

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:13:44 GMT

Make the school uniform out of denim. Just jeans and a jacket. Problem solved.

Re: Gender neutral?

**bustysinclaire** — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:32:25 GMT

Brilliant harry xx

Re: Gender neutral?

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:35:01 GMT

So I am.