topic Re: Police dog Finn. in The Round Table

Police dog Finn.

cee-dee — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:16:29 GMT

Police dog Finn was stabbed by a 16 year-old, He's now recovering but a petition has been started calling for Police Dogs and Horses to be given the same status as Police Officers. Fancy signing the petition?:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168678/signatures/new

Here's the info (The number of signatures is out of date, it's over 31,000 now) :-

http://www.spaldingtoday.co.uk/news/crime/finn-s-law-petition-calling-for-attack-on-police-dog-to-be-classed-as-attempted-murder-gains-thousands-of-signatures-1-7623244

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-37621671

Re: Police dog Finn.

fallen-archie — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:33:31 GMT

Done.

Re: Police dog Finn.

cee-dee — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 15:45:35 GMT

Thanks.

Re: Police dog Finn.

littleme61_6 — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:03:23 GMT

Done.

Re: Police dog Finn.

jd.linklater — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:58:26 GMT

Being charged with murder for killing a dog sounds like a dangerous precedent to set.

A very ill conceived petition in my opinion, sorry but I won't be signing.

Re: Police dog Finn.

cee-dee — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:15:32 GMT

They're not just "a dog". They're amazing trackers and detectors depending on the line taken during their training.

Trackers don't just track criminals, they find lost people or people who've been injured and have "staggered off".

Detectors are trained to find a variety of drugs or money, even guns and ammunition, again, depending on what line they've been trained for and being killed doing their work is a risk they take the same as their handlers and other officers.

Should the Law be changed (or added to) I don't suppose the offence of killing such "a dog" during the execution of its duty would be quite the same as for killing a Police Officer but would carry a more severe sentence than for killing just "a dog".

Re: Police dog Finn.

jd.linklater — Wed, 12 Oct 2016 23:15:02 GMT

Don't get me wrong, I'm dead against cruelty to all animals and what the guy did to the police dog was appalling cruelty for which he should quite rightly be prosecuted. Unfortunately current penalties for cruelty to animals are woefully inadequate and that is where change is needed.

I know that thousands of pounds and hundreds of man hours are invested in training a police dog but that doesn't make it any more important than any other dog, or any other species for that matter. Every species on the planet is as important as any other, maybe not to humans but to the welfare of the planet as a whole.

Re: Police dog Finn.

margaret*e — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 08:29:06 GMT

It is a difficult one.

I see JDs point, but also the point of the petition.

Although thousands of animals are abused on a daily basis, and I agree the penalties are ridculous, these dogs are trained to help humans, because of this I think the penalties should be higher.

Re: Police dog Finn.

cee-dee — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 08:37:03 GMT

JD, if the penalties for humans were "equal", there'd be no disincentive for criminals to attack those who are there to keep Law and Order. The Police Dogs are part of Law-keeping so should be afforded some extra "protection".

Re: Police dog Finn.

jd.linklater — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:13:01 GMT

The more I look into the legal aspects of this the more I'm convinced that this petition is misguided. The legal definition of murder is 'the unlawful killing of a human being in the Queen's peace, with malice aforethought'. That's the killing of a human being by another human being, not a dog or a police dog or any other animal. Calling a dog PD Finn does not make it human, it's purely an emotive ruse to get the public to back the idea. You cannot charge someone with murder or attempted murder of a dog without re-defining murder in the High Court, that is just not going to happen.

Incidentally a human being is also defined by law. Did you know that under current legislation a man can assault his pregnant wife and if that assault results in the death of her foetus he can't be charged with murder, because in in the eyes of the law a foetus is not a human being. You can probably see where I'm going with this. Even if the guy intends to kill the foetus and his wife survives he can only be charged with assault. But this petition proposes that whether or not the guy who stabbed the dog intended to kill it, he can be charged with attempted murder. To me that is just wrong.

Re: Police dog Finn.

cee-dee — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:29:47 GMT

In the circumstance of killing (by a deliberate act) an unborn child (capable of being born alive) the offence is child destruction.

Being realistic, I suppose, should the petition go so far as to being considered for debate leading to a Bill, it's probable that the act of injuring or killing a Police Dog would not actually put such an act of violence on a par with offences against humans but is likely to increase the penalties over and above what are available now.

Re: Police dog Finn.

jd.linklater — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:44:21 GMT

@cee-dee wrote:
In the circumstance of killing (by a deliberate act) an unborn child (capable of being born alive) the offence is child destruction.

It can only be classed as child destruction if intent can be proven.

Being realistic, I suppose, should the petition go so far as to being considered for debate leading to a Bill, it's probable that the act of injuring or killing a Police Dog would not actually put such an act of violence on a par with offences against humans but is likely to increase the penalties over and above what are available now.

Then that's how the petition should have been worded. Increasing penalties for attacking police dogs is one thing, according them equal status with police officers is altogether different. Having said that I still wouldn't sign it because it would be implying that a police dog has more value purely because it is of use to us. I don't agree with that either

Re: Police dog Finn.

fallen-archie — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:56:25 GMT

I Can see both sides of the argument, and perhaps it is a bit far fetched to expect the same rights to be given to an animal as one expects as a human. However I stand by my decision to support the petition. I would apply the same principals to the plight of a guide dog which is subjected to abuse by a human being,
Some of us need to be reigned in from time to time.

Re: Police dog Finn.

cee-dee — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 14:48:33 GMT

Re: Police dog Finn.

jd.linklater — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 15:03:17 GMT

So the injured dog is leading a brave recovery. As opposed to what? A snivelling cowardly recovery perhaps?

Either way I'm sure the get well cards are an enormous benefit.

What a load of sentimental tosh.

Re: Police dog Finn.

cee-dee — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 18:18:57 GMT

Checks carefully, double checks, yes, JD's crossed off the Christmas list.

Re: Police dog Finn.

otherego — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 19:06:32 GMT

What a beautiful dog. One gets used to a particular breed - there seems to have been a German Shepherd in the family since about 1968. (Stop sniggering at the back.)

My initial and totally sentimental response to the whole thing is, of course, bring back hanging. Or at least flogging.

A more reasoned response, though goes along these lines.

It seems to be the dog's job instead of its handler's to take the knife/bullet. I have huge problems with this, but hey, I'm sentimental and that's how it's done.

The dog is well trained. AFAIK, it's all a game to the dog. Right until some ~~low-life~~ frightened teenager knifes it. Courage doesn't really come into it.

If there's a moral problem here, surely it involves putting dogs in harm's way in this manner. They're not being brave (except, I would guess, when they turn on someone they perceive to be threatening their human) - they're simply responding to commands as they were trained.

Can they even begin to estimate the degree of danger they're in?

I don't think it makes sense to afford a police/guide/mountain rescue/whatever dog more protection than any other dog. I'm just glad I don't make the decision whether or not police (in this instance) dogs should be used - or a lot of very decent policemen and women would be in even more danger than they are now. The dogs really do seem to look after them as they pursue their duties.

Having said all that - get well cards for a dog? Sweet, perhaps - but yes, I tend to along with the "sentimental tosh" approach.

Feeling a tendency to sniff a bit on seeing photos of the injured dog is, of course, another matter entirely.

Re: Police dog Finn.

tallulah110 — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 19:41:08 GMT

Signed.

Re: Police dog Finn.

margaret*e — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 21:19:04 GMT

The dog, willing or not, is in more danger than the average pet dog, and it's a dogs instinct to protect its family.

I have seen this to a lesser degree with my own pets over the years.

I see in the article he refers to Finn as his partner.

Re: Police dog Finn.

tallulah110 — Sun, 16 Oct 2016 21:23:27 GMT

One of my dogs is a GSD X, and very protective of family and of my other dog..........