Be careful refunding a cancellation from 1st September
Summary: kabooodle shared their experience with eBay's Simple Delivery process, particularly how they've been charged for shipping labels even after refunding a buyer, due to changes since September 1st. They sought advice and were informed that switching to a business account could alleviate such issues. Several participants discussed the legalities and ethics of buying and selling on eBay, emphasizing the importance of using the correct account type. Eventually, kabooodle switched to a business account, but raised concerns that eBay's refund process for delivery charges wasn't straightforward. The discussion also touched on broader concerns about account misrepresentation and eBay's enforcement policies.
I gave a buyer a full refund yesterday for an item not realising that ebay had already charged me for the shipping label. I have had to fill in an online form to try to get my money back. You'd think it would be automatically refunded if the label hasn't been used. Like it's obvious if you give a refund, because you haven't printed the label yet, no? Er, no! It wasnt a problem before 1st September. In the last 2 weeks I've dealt with buyers cancelling orders and I have no problem giving them a refund. It's just the professional thing to do. But since 1st September ebay have taken over all aspects of shipping for private sellers with Simple Delivery. So if you offer Free Shipping ie. Seller pays, why should you be out of pocket? Have I got a setting wrong somewhere? I don't think so. I state Returns Accepted in my listings but it's at the buyer's expense. Anyone else had this problem?
backfrombeyond
·1 week ago · Editedremoved
jonatjonatjonat
·1 week agoNone of what they did is ok. But neither is selling on private account ok if what you are doing is a trading activity. The ability to profit from said activity is not relevant to the account you should have.
backfrombeyond
·1 week ago · Editedremoved
papso22
·1 week agoHaving a business account is nothing to do with tax. By trading on an ebay private account you are breaking a number of laws, including one that is a criminal, not civil, offense.
backfrombeyond
·1 week ago · Editedremoved
papso22
·1 week agoYou appear to have missed the fact that I said 'business account' not 'business'.
boundarycoins
·1 week agoLooking at the 2 items sold I don’t think you got a bad price. The £260 profit you mention is surely what you see them selling a full complete unit for? That won’t be pure profit for them and that’s assuming they aren’t buying them for their own machine / personal use.
The business / private thing is going to be touchy for people today as most of us have just cleared a shop fee. I’m still at £0.96 owed to eBay in Oct after 2 sales.
backfrombeyond
·1 week ago · Editedremoved
jonatjonatjonat
·1 week agoSeems simple then? You avoid all that and you end up legally compliant.
theelench
·1 month agoThe evidence is there if anyone wants to look for it, but I'm sure you're as aware as I am that presenting it in a way that it cannot be immediately dismissed would be difficult without running the risk of being reported for violating the board policy on "Naming and Shaming".
More importantly ebay, with it's oversight of all transactions, must be aware of exactly how big the problem is and how many buyers are pretending to be private when they are in fact businesses misrepresenting themselves.
Just as with the problem of businesses pretending to be "Private" sellers, it is up to ebay to enforce its policies and the law. Denouncing either on here doesn't appear to have any effect on ebay's unwillingness to do either.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoIn the end, I got a refund from eBay but it wasn't automatic, it only happened because I chased them. I hope eBay will sort this mess so that Simple Delivery is simple, not complicated for the private, probably inexperienced, new sellers they court.
theelench
·1 month ago@cobwebcottage
"I personally have told you before that if I buy on ebay to sell, I will use my business account and it is recorded in my expenses. This can be seen from my buyer feedback."
I know you have, I checked your FB when you did so. I've also checked other business seller's FB, when it's not impossible because they are posting on a separate posting account and not unsurprisingly, IMO, they have little or none to see.
I applaud the OP's decision to register as a business.
It's entirely up to each individual which posts they reply to and just like yourself with the unregistered business seller issue, I will also exercise my right to continue raising the undeclared business buyer issue for as long as it exists on ebay. All I'm saying is that when sellers rightly insist that "the law is the law, no exceptions", but go silent when another aspect of the same law is mentioned, I find the reluctance to talk about it suspicious.
cobwebcottage
·1 month agoThis is usually the time I will go silent as I lose the plot of the point you are making. But, I will make an exception at this time so you don't think I am running away from answering you.
When you provide evidential proof for your argument, I will read it, evaluate it and, maybe, comment on it. Over and out.
jonatjonatjonat
·1 month agoI find the reluctance to talk about it suspicious.
I think it might show some astute decision making.
cobwebcottage
·1 month ago'Retaliation for having so many discussions pointlessly disrupted by questions about a sellers account status. So I started disrupting their disruptions with my own questions about business sellers buying habits. Even I was surprised that how often my post would end the discussion. Rather than talk about the other side of the problem, those usually so vociferous about incorrect selling activity would abandon the discussion completely. To me their reticence says a lot about just how widespread the practice is.'
You may think it is a pointless disruption because it doesn't affect you or your livelihood and you are just happy to poke until you get a reaction.
We work on evidence when pointing out that a seller is trading on the wrong account and in an ideal world it would make Ebay a safer and more trustworthy place to buy from if the laws were followed.
Back to evidence. I personally have told you before that if I buy from Ebay to sell, I will use my business account and it is recorded in my expenses. This can be seen from my buyer feedback.
So where is your evidence that businesses are rife in buying on private accounts or are you just putting a finger in the wind and guessing which way it blows?
Fact - a lot of us give up answering your posts as it is a pointless exercise.
By the way, the OP has now registered as a business seller and is trading legally which is a positive for everyone and their issue has now been solved.
@theelench
kabooodle
OP1 month agoI am indeed a business seller now. As I said I was under a misapprehension about the criteria. You'll all have to take my word on it. However, my original issue with ebay is not solved. I have had no word from them yet about refunding my Simple Delivery charge. My original post was intended to warn private sellers and I will update this post when I get a resolution.
jonatjonatjonat
·1 month agohttps://www.ebay.co.uk/claims/simple-delivery/refund/seller
theelench
·1 month ago@boundarycoins
Legally and ethically misrepresentation is is akin to a lie. It follows that, if acting ethically, neither a business nor a private buyer would tell a lie to gain an advantage.
The law takes the view that in a transaction between a business and a private seller, the business will always be in a 'stronger' position and must always declare themselves. Ebay policy says that all business activity should be carried out on a Business Account but, just as it does with businesses selling on a private account, does nothing to deter those businesses that flout the rules.
"Where does it stand where the private seller is picking up job lots for their genuine hobby but in the knowledge that they don't want half of it and flip it to get a bit of money back to fund their collection."
That is covered by "The Badges of Trade", which make it clear that doing that will be defined by the frequency and value of such transactions. I've done it myself, being generous perhaps 10 times in over a decade buying and selling on ebay. If I was doing it 10 times a week, or even a year then Trading could rightly be suspected.
Why do you think that "...putting a private seller in a detrimental position by masquerading......won't be very common" ?
I agree that incorrectly registered businesses are a serious and growing problem on ebay. They evade fees, possibly evade paying taxes, undercut properly registered business and possibly make the site less safe. They are dishonest, unscrupulous and care nothing for ethics. All that matters to them is "their bottom line" -- How much they can make from the situation.
Are you seriously suggesting that such a person won't have noticed that there is money to be made by misrepresenting themselves ? That sort of person will take any and every opportunity to profit from the situation whenever it is possible. Working in an uncompetitive and largely law abiding niche area I can assure you it is far from uncommon and not too difficult to spot.
I admit I was also being a bit mischievous when I started pointing out that ALL misrepresentation is illegal. Retaliation for having so many discussions pointlessly disrupted by questions about a sellers account status. So I started disrupting their disruptions with my own questions about business sellers buying habits. Even I was surprised that how often my post would end the discussion. Rather than talk about the other side of the problem, those usually so vociferous about incorrect selling activity would abandon the discussion completely. To me their reticence says a lot about just how widespread the practice is.
But at the end of the day any discussion of businesses unethical and illegal trading activities is pointless. Ebay also only thinks about its bottom line and until it is forced to have some respect for the law and enforce its own policy, it will ignore both sides of the problem whether or not it makes the site less safe for honest buyers and sellers.
boundarycoins
·1 month agoWhy do you think that "...putting a private seller in a detrimental position by masquerading......won't be very common" ?
Are you seriously suggesting that such a person won't have noticed that there is money to be made by misrepresenting themselves ?
I envisage that the business who buys off a private account has to actively communicate via messaging or offers for it to matter to the private seller. Most transactions on eBay don’t involve any dialogue.
I’m sorry I can’t get into this further I need to get some parcels out by lunchtime but if you ask business sellers who buy off a private account why I’m sure they will say it is to level the playing field with private buyers it has nothing to do with getting one over on the seller at all. That, and some private sellers have a hang up about business sellers and will cancel their sales or retract their bids.
theelench
·1 month agoThat may be the case regarding HMRC and tax and expenses. But UK law is clear that a business must declare itself as such in all transactions with a private person and ebay policy is that buying and selling by a business should be carried out on business accounts. Businesses that have a "Private" buying account to restock the business account are going against policy and the law.
boundarycoins
·1 month agoThis raises a grey area in my mind. I’m not talking legally but ethically - What about private to private sales where one party is somewhat of an expert? It seems to me that on the eBay forum businesses get whacked on the head for buying on a separate private account when in reality it makes no difference to the outcome, a bid is a bid, a buy it now is what it is, unless the business is trying to talk the private seller into a detrimental position by masquerading which I’m sure does go on but won’t be very common.
I am saying this to be a bit mischievous but think a private seller with decades of knowledge in an area, possibly greater than many traders, is able to pick up underpriced items at will on eBay and then when they want to shuffle their collection around or downsize they can sell items and make a good profit on what they paid and that’s not seen as a problem because it’s a hobby. Where does it stand where the private seller is buying bulk lots for their genuine hobby but in the knowledge they don’t want half of it and have to flip it to get a bit of money back to fund the collection? They are able to compete hard with the business seller as they know what they are looking at, they are calculating price like a business, they can get eBay coupons on a private account or third party cashback which is often barred on the business account so they have scope to pay a bit more.
I don’t expect anyone to tackle this subject seriously, I don’t have a strong position on it either way but I think about it sometimes usually when I’m calculating my costs at the end of a week or I see a private seller with £1m of items up for sale on eBay from their collection.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoYes, I'd already spotted another grey area. And it's one from which eBay benefits financially. It's when a hobby evolves into a business naturally in exactly the way you outline. There's no malicious intent behind the avid collector thinning their collection to fund more buying. I know several people who started as hobbyists then either went on to have a Seller account on ebay or went the whole hog and started their own website after learning the 'trade' on ebay.
theelench
·1 month agoSo now the OP's account status has been fully explored, what's the answer to their question ??
jonatjonatjonat
·1 month agoFor a business they upgrade to avoid simple delivery.
Otherwise the only option is to fill in the form to request a refund.
Oh need to remember…IT IS ALSO ILLEGAL TO PUR HASE FOR A BUSINESS ON A PRIVATE ACCOUNT.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoThat's interesting but I can't find a reference to that online. Can you point me in the right direction?
jonatjonatjonat
·1 month agoOh theelench always raises it as a point of contention when its pointed out that businesses trading on a private account are doing so illegally. So its just to appease them.
Though one specific is this
kabooodle
OP1 month agoAh, I see! That specific in the link looks, from my quick scan, like it doesn't preclude a separate account for buying but does put conditions on how you use it? So long as your purchases on a Private account are declared to HMRC as expenses you're compliant I presume.
jonatjonatjonat
·1 month agoHow would the person you are purchasing from know that you were doing that though? To the seller - you are a private consumer.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoThanks for bringing it back on topic. My point being, if you are a Private Seller, this will happen to you every time you get an order cancellation. If eBay are handling all aspects of Simple Delivery, shouldn't they be responsible for refunding the buyer the cost? Legally, who is the contract for delivery with in the end? eBay or the seller? Let's not forget, Free Delivery is just another way of saying the cost of delivery is included in the sale price. So in reality someone is paying a shipping fee - it comes out the final value if it's Free Delivery. It's like the contract is between 3 parties - one for the Goods between the seller and buyer (guaranteeing the goods are not faulty, as described, etc.) the other for Delivery between eBay and the buyer (that the item will be delivered on time, to the correct address etc.). I find this as all a bit confusing.
boundarycoins
·1 month agoI would just change everything to buyer pays postage.
Not only due to the issue you are finding but if you fund the labels, buyers checkout in ways they wouldn’t if they were paying for it.
If you do go on a business account then I would do free delivery but on a private using simple delivery absolutely no way.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoYes, that's a sound argument.
boundarycoins
·1 month agoJust mentioning this if you convert to a business account. It may force you to change pricing or take a haircut as you are entering a world of eBay fees.
Fortunately in sound and vision subcategories the FVF fees are as low as 6.9% and you can do other things to knock a bit more off that but if you sell the item at £229.99 for example, expect your net after fees and postage will be nearer to £200.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoThanks for your help. As I'm looking into it again, I did notice the fees were less in those categories which is a bonus. TBH, I will jump into being a Business Seller straightaway because the fee structure just reminds me of old ebay, like years ago when I joined it. Forgive the moan, but all this 'free' listings for Private Sellers is wordplay and double-speak. Buyer Protection is a just fee at the end of the day. Having control over postage again and transparent fees decides it for me!
cobwebcottage
·1 month agoUse the correct account, trade legally, and then you can choose your own postage method. Solved.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoYes, that's my plan. But for those private sellers out there? The point I was raising was to make them aware of the issue.
jonatjonatjonat
·1 month agoPrimarily, if you are refurbishing these items to sell, a business account is what you are after.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoI'd love to and I have the turnover to qualify but not the quantity - don't I need to sell 100 of items per month? But I made my comment to try and help other private sellers burdened with Simple Delivery.
jonatjonatjonat
·1 month agoNo. Turnover and quantity of sales are nothing to do with account type.
If you are making or buying products specifically for selling. You require a business account.
It would benefit you greatly as you don’t need to use simple delivery and this issue goes away.
kabooodle
OP1 month agoOK, I've looked into it before as it seemed like the next step and was obviously under a misapprehension about the qualifying criteria. It would definitely be a benefit to not use Simple Delivery.
tressygirl
·1 month agoHere you go, it's easy to change your Private account to be correctly registered as a Business account , and then Simple Delivery is not used:
Go to Account settings in My eBay.
Select Personal information.
Select Edit next to Account type. You may be asked to sign in again.
Select Confirm to upgrade to a Business account.
Specify whether you operate your business as a legal entity or as a sole proprietor and select Continue.
On the following page, enter your business information such as name, contact information, and returns policy. Then select Save.
Probably best to use a PC / laptop for this, and not the app or mobile browser. Chrome seems to work best on eBay.
@kabooodle
kabooodle
OP1 month agoThanks, it's on my to-do list for today!
papso22
·1 month agoIt would also make you legally compliant