SELLERS ACTING AS PRIVATE SELLERS BUT OBVIOUSLY A BUSINESS.
Summary: The discussion revolves around concerns about sellers on eBay who are registered as private but are conducting activities that appear to be business-related, such as offering multiple listings with numerous available items. prestigeproducts_4u expressed frustration over the lack of enforcement by eBay on this issue. Several participants, including rainbowtrax, messier44000, and cbennissupplies, discussed the ineffectiveness of reporting these sellers and eBay’s inadequate response. Some noted that regulatory bodies like HMRC could potentially address these issues, while others, including cobwebcottage and papso22, highlighted the challenges of getting enforcement from eBay or government agencies. The discussion also touched on the potential for VAT fraud, the barriers for legitimate businesses, and the legal obligations sellers are ignoring.
I see many many sellers registered as private but they are selling multiple items which have 10 or more available
(some have multiple listings as many as 100)
To me this is a business and should be registered as a business surely?
Is this allowed
I am registered as a business seller and pay my appropriate taxes
Whats your thoughts.?
krafty-kreations
·yesterday at 4:22 PMThis is part of an email from executive escalations re 3 business sellers using private accounts, one with over 4000 handmade products listed
I can confirm that the accounts in question remain private as the selling threshold to upgrade to a business account has not been met and there is no evidence to suggest any of the three accounts are business sellers
and part of an email from the department of business and trade
eBay is a private company and their internal policies are a commercial decision which the
Government cannot intervene in. Any concerns about private sellers not using their account
correctly should be raised directly with eBay.
So nothing will ever get done.
I have seen more and more sellers in my categories move over to a private account and in all honesty I don't blame them, but the more that leave/start selling on a private account means the only ones who will suffer going forward are the genuine business and genuine private sellers.
Can't wait to see what is coming next!!
jonatjonatjonat
·yesterday at 4:29 PMQuite simply - several customers need to suffer severe consequences at the hands of a product sold by a business trading as a private seller for anything to happen.
jonatjonatjonat
·yesterday at 4:29 PMAnd possibly an ITV Dramatisation.
the_book_seekers
·yesterday at 9:53 PMA drop of salmonella from somebody's dodgy kitchen is a real possibility.
the_book_seekers
·yesterday at 9:56 PMThe reply from the Dept of Business & Trade is complete rubbish and it's no wonder ebay takes no notice of our commercial legislation if that's what they have to say.
sml192
·yesterday at 10:30 PMWhat is this mystery threshold they speak of?
the_book_seekers
·yesterday at 11:32 PMThere have been posts in the past reporting customer services agents implying there is a financial threshold for an account to be considered a business, and its not the one used by HMRC.
papso22
·9 hours agoI think the government dept is right, legally they have no jurisdiction over how ebay enforces its guidance to sellers. Ebay is not the one breaking the law, the incorrectly registered sellers are. It would be great if ebay was more consistent and took action against the law breaking accounts but unless the government passes a law that makes ebay legally responsible, that is not going to happen.
There might be a way to 'name and shame' ebay for its failure to protect genuine and compliant businesses from this damaging and unfair competition, but that would involve the media or consumer group getting a good story out of it. Another hurdle is that the anonymous nature of a private account makes it extremely difficult to identify the actual business involved in the illegal and deceptive activity.
That leaves action against individual sellers, which is unlikely unless a body like Trading Standards gets involved.
There is clearly no point in complaining to, or about, ebay.
krafty-kreations
·8 hours agoThere is clearly no point in complaining to, or about, ebay.
I totally agree, they will sit back and do nothing until they are forced to do something and I don't see that happening.
cobwebcottage
·7 hours agoUntil a child is taken to hospital after swallowing caustic liquid and all of the packaging is in Chinese! See other thread.
https://community.ebay.co.uk/forum/business-seller-board-12/topic/people-copying-advert-text-photos-not-matching-items-general-rant-55829/?focus_post=236005
arkwebus
·2 days ago@pillarboxred
The only requirement for seller to issue a "tax invoice" is if the seller is registered for VAT and if the buyer is registered for VAT.
VAT Regulation 1995 Regulation 13
13(1) Save as otherwise provided in these Regulations, where a registered person (P)–
(a)makes a taxable supply in the United Kingdom to a taxable person, or
As I posted some while back we used to mention sellers who [rather obviously] seemed to be businesses but eBay told us to stop!
bikehq_co_uk
·3 days ago · EditedThe law that is being broken is The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 - that a business or trader that is distance selling must legally offer returns for 14 days, for any reason. It is illegal to display a sign saying no refunds or seek to restrict statutory rights. Also there is an Information Penalty: If the business fails to inform the customer about their cancellation rights before purchase, this cancellation right is extended for up to 12 months.
Also from ebay - Under the Electronic Commerce (EC Directive) Regulations 2002 you must provide the following information in the Business Seller Information section of your listings:
Full contact details for your business, including the geographical address
Details of any relevant trade organisations to which you belong
Details of any authorisation scheme relevant to your online business
Clear indications of price, if relevant, including any delivery or tax charges
Your VAT number, if your online activities are subject to VAT
Definition of a business/trader - If you sell things regularly to make a profit, you are legally a business/trader.
There seems to be no way to effectively report the seller for not complying to regulation. You used to be able to report individual listings for not being legal, but I can't see how to now.
Edit: there is definately no way to report either seller or listing for not complying to legislation
Edit 2 - turns out you can report a seller for not complying to ebay policies here - https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/buying/resolving-issues-sellers/reporting-item-issue-seller?id=4022
pillarboxred
·3 days agoWhat private sellers need to sell 300 items a month? Even the superconsumers of the Virgin Islands don't have that number of last season, new in box, hardly used Designer apparel and accessories. That kind of consumer hasn't the time to fiddle faddle with eBay listings as they race from reception to reception.
papso22
·3 days agoIt's not selling, it's listing, not the same thing. But even as a listing allowance I think it's excessive.
wheretheloveb
·4 days ago · EditedA few weeks back, Vinted were in the mainstream news regarding customers anger about certain workings of the site.
Also, Evri were the focus of a Panorama documentary.
Maybe this is the way to go, although I doubt even that will change anything.
Complaining on this forum certainly doesn't seem to change anything
messier44000
·10 hours agoMaybe needs to get a number of sellers contacting BBC watchdog or Matt Allwrights show on CH5 for some live TV Q&As with HMRC in attendance. But guessing they will have no one available to comment.
cobwebcottage
·4 days agoThere are 3 limited companies on my watch list. All registered with Companies House, all with LTD in their user name. All trading on private accounts.
You can't get more obvious than that. Ebays policies are as useless as a chocolate teapot.
pillarboxred
·3 days agoVAT evasion is very serious.
cbennissupplies
·6 days agoseriously old topic for true buisness sellers, overall dont worry it runs hand in hand with it will either go dark or rain before tommorow or both,
the new HMRC law that came in Jan this year will catch up, ebay along with all other similar sites are required to hand over to HMRC all information regards accounts both buisness and private. registered name and address with total number of sales and turnover from there HMRC will filter out businesses that are submitting there TAX and log all that go over the threshold and represent a side hustle those people will need to report their P&L to HMRC if they do not HMRC will, come next year be sending out TAX bills and they will be based on the whole turnover for each individual.
once first phase is over would not be surprised if HMRC turn there attention to the platforms in regard's of those whose turnover means they are acting as a buisness and are made to represent as such so as to comply with UK trading law and trading standards for consumer protection.
papso22
·6 days agoThe digital sales reporting rules came in last year, but while they may catch tax dodgers they will do nothing to make businesses use ebay business accounts instead of the much more lucrative, but illegal, private ones.
pillarboxred
·3 days agoBut the lucrative, "private" accounts are VAT frauds.
papso22
·3 days agoOnly if over the VAT registration threshold.
sml192
·3 days ago · EditedI think that is unlikely to be the case given that eBay is jointly and severally liable where VAT is concerned.
the_book_seekers
·5 days agoonce first phase is over would not be surprised if HMRC turn there attention to the platforms in regard's of those whose turnover means they are acting as a buisness and are made to represent as such so as to comply with UK trading law and trading standards for consumer protection.
I initially thought the same as you, but if these sellers are paying their taxes and not avoiding them, policing consumer laws is not in HMRC remit. The figures may be there to show how many sellers are potentially breaking consumer laws, whether they would be used or not is another matter.
pillarboxred
·3 days agoA VAT registered business must create a VAT invoice for every sale.
jonatjonatjonat
·3 days agoIt’s probably amazing how many of them turnover £85,000 a year.
pillarboxred
·3 days agoYes, and HMRC have the discretionary power to assess whether that is a true figure. For example, if an antiques shop makes sales of £85,000 while opening three days a week, HMRC can decide that they would be making £141,000 if they were opening five days a week and charge unpaid VAT accordingly. Or at least, that was the position in the 1990s.
jonatjonatjonat
·3 days agoSorry I believe that is nonsense.
You seem to be saying that HMRC can tell a company genuinely making less than the threshold that they need to register on the basis of money they COULD make?
papso22
·3 days ago · EditedThat would only be the case if the shop told HMRC that they only opened 3 days a week but were actually opening 5 days a week, and keeping the other 2 days 'off record'. Then HMRC would extrapolate the known takings to estimate the missing ones. There would have to be evidence of the other trading hours, not just an assumption.
Also, I have never known HMRC choose not to act because of the 'economic effect on the nation'. That would be a consideration during discussions on new laws, not the enforcement of existing ones. VAT avoidance/evasion would always be dealt with by assessment and enforcement action.
pillarboxred
·3 days agoI think HMRC have also to consider whether their enforcement actions and rules would lead to a lower level of economic activity in the nation. It's complex.
jonatjonatjonat
·3 days agojust to clarify here. You have just gone from suggesting that HMRC would come after businesses for VAT based on revenue they won't actually make, to suggesting that HMRC would knowingly NOT chase an ebay seller for VAT owed for the greater good of the country.
is that correct?
arkwebus
·1 week agoSome while ago many were posting this on the forums drawing attention to the rules but were warned by eBay to "stop it!"
theelench
·yesterday at 2:56 PMIt took them long enough !!!!!
the_brick_lodge
·1 week agoI think my last post on this topic was too cryptic.
47119 x 4796619 = 226011890661
Can't understand why but eBay does not care, I can only assume they don't want to lose the sellers.
Everything I search for is private sellers, video game, private seller with 15 brand new copies on one listing, computer mouse 4 private sellers selling them for £2 delivered (how?), other listings show random stuff so it's the dropship model meaning some of these sellers are now on private accounts, needed a part for my TV, private seller with parts from 50 different TVs.
One of the few things we have access to that private sellers don't is order volume discounts (I've even seen a private seller with their own seller coupon) but the new bundles feature is basically the same, it is very restrictive in the way it's set up but I guess you can afford 15% off 3 items if you aren't paying the fees we do.
jonatjonatjonat
·6 days agoFWIW the numbers are still cryptic. It's a vaguepost.
wheretheloveb
·4 days agoVery cryptic..... havent got the foggiest ?
cobwebcottage
·4 days agoFor what it's worth, neither do I.
jonatjonatjonat
·4 days agoI don’t care about being cryptic. The result of the sum is an item number.
the_brick_lodge
·4 days agoSearch eBay for the answer to the maths problem.
jonatjonatjonat
·4 days agoBlimey
the_brick_lodge
·3 days ago · EditedYeap, there isn't a date range on that third photo but going with the current set up I calculate a saving of
£7360 in FVF (7% instead of 12% although the BPF drops at certain tiers so could be more)
£2181 in fixed fees (10p instead of 36p)
I doubt that is 12 months as eBay would be asking for a VAT number but let's just say 12 months of shop fees for that many listings £6292
I'm not sure if totals in seller hub for private sellers include the postage but at £3 each assuming it does there's no BPF on that which saves another £1000 maybe or if the total doesn't include any postage that's a saving of £3010.
Big sums of money, I'm not a wealthy person (sure this eBay account has a lot of feedback but that took decades to build up), money earnt puts food on the table and pays the bills, that kind of saving on fees would benefit my family.
I don't object to paying eBay to be here, I don't object to private sellers getting a good deal on fees but to think you could sell on a private account and have an extra £17000 to £19000 for your family is just a crazy concept.
boundarycoins
·5 days agoI sat down with a friend the other day who is working full time but wants to do a bit of eBay on the side on a business account and was asking about the fees. I showed them what it would be and they were leaning towards V Pro instead. One of the things I said was that the eBay business account still allowed you to use SKU’s whereas private didn’t anymore but checking, it seems as if private seller SKU’s are back. It’s very difficult to sell perks of a business account to anyone I was struggling to say much more than well it just means you’re doing it legally.
BTW I get your cryptic message now. It was bugging the life out of me until I realised what it was lol.
the_brick_lodge
·4 days agoI'm not sure there are any perks left, packing voucher?
The other place eBay are desperate to keep up with would ban sellers for listings hundreds of new goods for sale.
I saw a private seller the other day with 5000+ listings, some of those had been on site for 7 years, how does that help eBay? But it does mean the seller can flood eBay with cheap items for sale and possibly pick up the sale when that buyer you are waiting for happens to look for that one thing.
If they had to pay around £500 a month for a shop and 36p closing fee plus FVF on postage they wouldn't have thousands of listings for £1.17.
messier44000
·1 week agoMany of us here have given up reporting. eBays bot ai will give the usual computer says no reply, nothing to see here. move on. In my field someone had over 1000 brand new telescopes and binoculars in their loft as unwanted Christmas presents (excuse my sarcasm). Nothing was done after the report.
the_book_seekers
·3 days agoI was researching for new oak bannisters on google and an ebay listing came up. It was exactly what I wanted, but hen I looked closer it was a private seller who happened to have multiple new oak and glass bannisters for sale. I thought about reporting him but its been so pointless. ebay has programmed its AI to say no to almost everything. Instead I contented myself with not giving him the sale. Had he been correctly registered I probably would've done.
top_tee_shirts_and_baby_vests
·1 week agoyou're flogging a dead horse as far as getting ebay to police their own policies but going on for years, complaints, reporting etc but nothing will shift ebay into getting it sorted
rainbowtrax
·1 week agoIt's not allowed but ebay don't care or police it and don't act on any reports so it's rife and has been for years.
pillarboxred
·3 days agoHMRC can assess businesses they think are evading VAT and penalise them. For example if a man and wife have ostensibly separate businesses but in reality they are not. Perhaps they could do some research and assess Platforms for the VAT they think the Treasury is losing due to the Platforms' lax enforcement. The point about that kind of HMRC assessment is that private citizens can fall foul of it so why not corporations?