Question Paypal and collection scam in Member To Member Support DO NOT DELETE

Paypal and collection scam

roland6495 — Sat, 24 Apr 2021 15:50:22 GMT

Hi All,

Hope somebody can give me some advice here: I sold a carpet a few weeks ago which (due to size) would be collection only. Buyer paid after a few days using Paypal and sent me an Ebay message to ask for my address and phone details so that he could arrange a van to pick up the carpet. He called me a few days later (revealing the number he called from) to tell me he had the van and would pick up the carpet. Middle aged man shows up in white van and parks on my drive. I help him load the carpet and off he goes. One week later the same Ebay user sends me a message via Ebay asking me to pick up the carpet. I told him that the carpet was already collected by him the week before. What follows was a barrage of verbal abuse and after a week Ebay decided in his favour since I had no proof the buyer collected the carpet.

I know it is a beginner mistake but have not had any trouble up to now and have not sold many collection only items. Also I assumed that the person collecting the carpet was the actual person I was communicating with via Ebay Messaging since only he could know my phonenumber, address details and the fact that I had sold him a carpet. Lastly I was not expecting a middle aged man to defraud me for a used carpet (ok it was still in good condition).

I contacted some other sellers who also had issues with the same buyer and reported him + left negative comments after feedback had already been provided. Buyer subsequently contacted Ebay to have these negative comments removed which they did. I cannot understand why.

Lastly I did some online research since I had both name and address details of the buyer as listed on Paypal/Ebay. Buyer's name is quite unique so I managed to track him down on FB including photo which I immediately recognised as the person who collected the carpet. However the Ebay/PayPal address details did not match (although he has purchased items that are sent to him via the post) with the name so I first posted a signed for letter to the address which was signed for by the person living at the address. Next I visited the same address in person which is only about 15 minute drive from where I live.

Interestingly the address was located in a very exclusive private road and when I drove past the house I also noticed the van that was used to pick up the carpet. Due to verbal abuse (see anonymed transcript on case below) I decided to ask neighbours first. I showed them a photo of the person who had picked up the carpet and they recognised him as one of the helpers of the owners of the house. However they did warn me that owner was not only verbally abusive but also had reputation of violent abuse. I decided to take some pictures of the van and left it with that.

I suspect that owner of the house and his helper play a game where his helper collects the item and owner subsequenly reports an item not received case. Was just wondering whether there is still something I can do at this stage. If it were not for myself it would be to warn other users not to become victim of this buyer.

==================Anonymised transcript of case (Start):================================

Apr. 16 :The case was resolved
Apr. 16 :The case was put on hold
Apr. 16 :The buyer has opened a case
CommentsThe seller is rude, disrespectful, deranged, dilutional and dishonest. He accepted my payment for goods which he either
never possessed or disposed of by other means and then presented a number of conflicting dishonest fictitious explanation in a
disgraceful effort to rip me off. versions of evens .
Apr. 16 :The buyer sent a message
CommentsThe carpet including underlay would have amounted to over 70 square meters. Furthermore, below it states "the seller added
tracking details - Signed delivered". Sadly as a seller you are rude, disrespectful, deranged, dilutional and dishonest. It is
people like you who damage the otherwise pleasurable buying experience on ebay.
Apr. 15 :You sent a message
Comments
Hi xxx: 1. Couple of points to consider: Carpet was 6.5 * 5.8m = 37.7 square metre (not over 70 square metres as you state).
2. Who said I posted the carpet (after all that is what you picked up) as shown in the evidence that I posted.
3. The address details that you provided happen to be the address details of Mr. zzz. What is your relationship with him ?
Judging from his profile details I cannot imagine he is behind your fraudulent actions.
Apr. 15 :The buyer sent a message
CommentsI note that you've changed your version of events again. Now you're claiming that you posted over 70 square meters
of carpet and underlay to Mr xxx via Royal mail and it was signed for. Again you are clearly demonstrating that you are
a dishonest man who brazenly took my money and then failed to provide me with the goods I paid you for. The only things
you have provided is lies, deceit, insults and disappointment. At the very least you should return my money, compensate
me for the inconvenience and provide a hand written apology.
Apr. 14 :You added tracking details
CommentsSigned delivery to xxx.
Apr. 13 :You sent a message
Hi xxx, Looks like you had negative feedback comments on Ebay removed. Well done ! How many more people are you going to defraud ?
Apr. 13 :The buyer sent a message
I see little point in explaining to you what negative feedback is. Do you have learning difficulties?
Apr. 12 :You sent a message
CommentsNegative feedback from one of your other sellers: "THE ABOVE FEEDBACK WAS LEFT IN ERROR FOR xxx. PLEASE AVOID AS A BUYER.
WON MY ITEM THEN MADE EXCUSES ABOUT EBAY AUTO BIDDING IN ERROR ON THEIR BEHALF THEN WANTED OTHER ITEMS,SENT PERSONAL RUDE
MESSAGES & WOULD NOT AGREE TO CANCEL TRANSACTION FOR DAYS. I CANNOT REMOVE POSITIVE FEEDBACK UNFORTUNATELY. WASTE OF TIME!!"
Apr. 12 :The buyer sent a message
CommentsWhat negative feedback? Conveniently and repeatedly you have claimed to be confused or unsure when ever it suits your
objective, You're quite transparent,
Apr. 12 :You sent a message
CommentsNot sure how I would manipulate independent third parties to leave negative feedback...
Apr. 12 :The buyer sent a message
CommentsI suggest you read our messages exchanged if you remain unclear. Save for your manipulating efforts to undermine my
feedback my feedback is impeccable and speaks for itself.
Apr. 12 :You sent a message
CommentsHi xxx, Not sure how you can say I changed my message. My communication to yourself, Ebay and police has been consistent and no way contradictory. Some additional facts obviously came to light when I got in touch with previous sellers. You can tell from comments on feedback what they think.. Regards, me
Apr. 12 :The buyer sent a message
CommentsI would appreciate if you refrain from telling bare faced lies. Writing convoluted messages does not change the truth
about your dishonesty. The Jackal and hyde manner in which you communicate and fact that you have now changed your version of
events again leaves no doubt in my mind that you are trying to scam me. Our messages exchanged is clear evidence of what took
place. You took my money and then resold or gifted the item. God will ensure that justice will be served.
Apr. 12 :You sent a message
CommentsHi, Just to let you know I have informed police and sent them cctv footage of yourself and your van as you were collecting
the carpet. I have also been in touch with previous sellers who reported issues with you as a buyer and confirmed that my description
of yourself fitted the person who came to collect. You know very well that you are trying defraud me.
Apr. 10 :The buyer didn't receive the item
Buyer wantsA refund
CommentsThe seller has my money and is now non responsive having refused to provide me with any carpet and failed to convince me me
with his fictitious excuse.

====================Anonymised transcript of case (End):================================

Update to question:

I managed to have my closed case reopened and Ebay allowed me to upload my evidence. After uploading the materials listed below the case was swiftly decided in my favour. Justice prevailed in the end and I have learned my lesson for next time.

1. Crime reference number from Action Fraud.
2. Message to buyer (showing phonenumber) providing instructions to park on drive.
3. Photo of buyer/person who came to collect.
4. Photo of numberplate of van which buyer used to collect.
5. Message exchange with other seller confirming identity of buyer.
6. Message to Ebay community describing my experience and asking for help.

Re: Paypal and collection scam

red_magpie — Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:13:17 GMT

You have done a brilliant detective job in investigating what, from your description, is suggestive of a scam orchestrated by the buyer.

There are other, more common (and easier!) ways of defrauding the seller when collecting items that have been paid for by PayPal. But the false identity scam is not unknown.

With the evidence you have now collected I would have thought that your next step would be the police.

Incidentally, time and time again I have advised sellers worried about collection scams to ask for ID, get them to sign a collection receipt, have a witness present and take a photo of the buyer collecting the item. It's good to know that this advice may have been useful to other sellers.

Re: Paypal and collection scam

roland6495 — Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:36:10 GMT

Thanks red_magpie,

Re: Paypal and collection scam

roland6495 — Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:43:28 GMT

I have created a case on the Action Fraud website and received a crime reference number. However I think the police is unlikely to follow up. Also Ebay and Paypal have not been very helpful: Although Ebay had closed the case in favour of the buyer I asked them to reopen/escalate it so that it could add my crime reference number and details (photographs of person collecting/van, etc.). Although they did agree they would do that when I spoke to them over the phone yesterday there is no sign of a case yet. I also spoke with Paypal and they keep referring me back to Ebay regarding my specific case. However they did send a link to report unauthorised account usage which is what I did.

Re: Paypal and collection scam

fargvs — Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:39:16 GMT

FFR > Avoid PayPal for collection items ... Cash on collection request for larger items is acceptable providing that the item is purchased through the eBay listing. Buyer and Seller then arrange viewing/collection, Cash is then exchanged and the item is taken away.

Safest and best way to be paid especially for Vehicles and larger items = No risk of Payment holds, Chargebacks, claims of Not received/not as described/damaged etc. ... if item is found to be not suitable, arrange a mutual cancellation > https://resolutioncentre.ebay.co.uk/

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/buying/postage-delivery/changing-delivery-address-method/collection-pers... = 'Items collected in person are still covered by eBay Money Back Guarantee if paid for with PayPal, however eBay Money Back Guarantee does not cover cash on collection transactions, or transactions where the item was not collected by the buyer.' ...

Re: Paypal and collection scam

roland6495 — Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:46:10 GMT

Thanks fargvs, the statement where it says "'Items collected in person are still covered by eBay Money Back Guarantee if paid for with PayPal, however eBay Money Back Guarantee does not cover cash on collection transactions, or transactions where the item was not collected by the buyer.' only covers the buyer. The seller is really left to his/her own devices and takes all the risks here. I just find it frustrating that Ebay does not seem to be willing to investigate a little furher despite fact that I have hard evidence that buyer came to collect item.

Re: Paypal and collection scam

fargvs — Sun, 18 Apr 2021 16:00:17 GMT

'however eBay Money Back Guarantee does not cover cash on collection transactions, or transactions where the item was not collected by the buyer.' ... so, with Cash in your hand , the buyer has no comeback once item is collected and taken away.

Re: Paypal and collection scam

arkwebus — Sun, 18 Apr 2021 16:03:22 GMT

"I contacted some other sellers who also had issues with the same buyer and reported him + left negative comments after feedback had already been provided. Buyer subsequently contacted Ebay to have these negative comments removed which they did. I cannot understand why"

Sellers cannot leave negative feedback [red spot] and leaving adverse comments is a breach of eBay's rules. As you have done most of the groundwork I would involve the police. While it is mainly circumstantial evidence that can be persuasive "like the trout found in the milk"

@roland6495

Re: Paypal and collection scam

roland6495 — Sun, 18 Apr 2021 16:51:23 GMT

Thanks arkwebus, I also found that it is not possible to leave negative feedback for a buyer. However it was possible to leave negative comments after the positive feedback had been given. In my case I had given buyer positive feedback 2 days after he had picked up. Then when he contacted me a week later and the whole drama erupted I left negative aftercomments.