topic Re: The blame game. in The Round Table

The blame game.

cee-dee — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 19:34:48 GMT

Whatever happens, someone is always "to blame"?

This last day or two we've seen the blame game starting over the election result?

It seems Corbyn and McDonnell are blaming the electorate for not agreeing with their campaign message and also blaming the media portrayal of Corbyn. OK, so McDonnell has said the Labour failure was "on him" but neither he nor Corbyn have admitted outright they were wrong.

They've forgotten that an MP is supposed to represent their constituents, not push their own point of view claiming it's for their constituents own good!

Years back we had Militant Tendency and now it's Momentum. Again, it's quite clear that group has an underlying agenda and if Labour supporters can't see that, they're destined for obscurity again!

I think it's a bit rich blaming "the media portrayal" seeing as there has been so much media publicity which was blatently biased towards their socialist agenda. OK, there has also been blatent bias against their agenda but had I had a voice in the media I'm afraid I'd have gone a lot further and said the Corbyn agenda was communist, trotskyist socialism.

Communism has failed, it's quite clear that it doesn't work. It was supposed to "empower" the "working classes" but the working classes eventually overthrew communism in Poland? See what's happening there now? Boy, they're moving on?

I think the Labour party is outdated anyway. "The working class" as was doesn't hardly exist now, most of us are "working class" but not the downtrodden, dirty, grimy chaps of the past. The "wicked upper class" as was doesn't exist either but what has arrived now are the supposed "entrepreneurs" who find something that people seem to want and manage to convince them to pay a small fortune for something that doesn't actually cost much and try to pay their employees as little as possible.

There, something to talk about

Re: The blame game.

upthecreekyetagain — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:20:19 GMT

Not sure that it was the agenda that Corbyn was pushing that lost him the election but rather what he wasn't pushing - he totally ignored the simple fact that a large proportion of the traditional Labour voters did not want a second referendum - they wanted the original one honoured as he had promised it would 3 years ago.

As regards all his other manifesto promises - I don't see them as communist or Trotskyist, (whatever that is), but simply unbelievable and unrealistic.

Re: The blame game.

cee-dee — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:41:59 GMT

Well I think you need a bit of research if you really want to know why I said what I did.

Re: The blame game.

upthecreekyetagain — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 20:55:11 GMT

The problem with calling any group Trotskyist is that it can mean almost anything you like! Michael Crick had it right when he wrote, "The followers of Leon Trotsky, like those of Jesus Christ, may all believe in the teachings of the same man, but they have rarely been united".

Of the many interviews seen on TV of voters who normally vote Labour but changed toTories in this election, I have not heard a single one say they behaved like this because Labour were communist or Trotskyist! Every single one has said it was simply all down to Labour's policy on Brexit.

Re: The blame game.

suzieseaside — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 21:33:58 GMT

Not to mention Corbyn's vacillation and lack of leadership qualities

Re: The blame game.

cee-dee — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:07:21 GMT

Well I've seen comments from "ordinary voters" about Corbyn being a communist. They've also mentioned Momentum. I can't remember which papers they were in but the "comments" sections under news items are quite interesting (not to say quite impolite sometimes).

Re: The blame game.

cee-dee — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:19:15 GMT

Now Ken Livingstone's blaming a "smear campaign" against Corbyn for the election defeat and he says Corbyn's made no mistakes?????

Re: The blame game.

upthecreekyetagain — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:27:44 GMT

I've also heard voters and seen newspaper opinion columns calling Corbyn a communist amongst other things but none saying they would normally vote Labour but didn't this time because he was a communist or whatever, in all cases it has been because of Brexit.

The Tories won the election because of Labour's policy on Brexit not because of their own policies nor those of the Labour Party on the NHS, nationalisation, taxation etc.

Re: The blame game.

cee-dee — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:33:55 GMT

Labour lost the election due to many factors. Being far too left-inclined (being polite there) was another reason.

Have a look at how Labour members are no lining up..... some trying to get Corbyn sympathisers in to the leadership. If it comes down to Corbynism in a new guise, they'll still be in the same boat in 5 years time.

Some of the comments have been about his IRA sympathies, his er, well, um islamic sympathies, his "militant student thinking".... amongst many others.

Re: The blame game.

cee-dee — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:53:11 GMT

It's everyone else's fault..... Corbyn says so (Taken from what he said in The Observer"):-

"I am proud that on austerity, on corporate power, on inequality and on the climate emergency we have won the arguments and rewritten the terms of political debate.

There is no doubt that our policies are popular, from public ownership of rail and key utilities to a massive house-building programme and a pay rise for millions."

I dunno, words fail ya?

Re: The blame game.

upthecreekyetagain — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 22:58:44 GMT

There are lots of reasons for why Labour lost being put forward post election - but the simple fact is that without the Tory gains in the traditional Labour constituencies of the North, (areas that voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU), then BJ would not have an overall majority.

Re: The blame game.

cee-dee — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 00:20:18 GMT

That was a silly thing to say??? IF? It's the same as saying IF the clouds hadn't rolled in the sun would have shined this afternoon.

If? Are you saying IF the Conservatives hadn't made gains in traditional Labour constituencies then Corby would have "won" or not lost by such a margin??????

The fact is they DID make those gains and some were substantial and others turned a Labour majority in to a similar Conservative majority.

The margin here last time was a Labour (seat held since 1935) majority of over 1800. This time it was a Conservative majority of over 2100.

If Labour don't get rid of the very hard left leaning pack, they'll get nowhere in future.

Re: The blame gameNew-Build

theelench — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 10:15:27 GMT

The first time I took any notice of Corbyn was when I saw him deliver one of his Christmas Messages. There he was, if I remember rightly, trying to do a "fire-side chat". Sitting in an antique leather Chesterfield and dressed in a velvet jacket and tie. I could picture the glass of Claret and smell the cigar smoke, just out of shot. He looked the picture of an Edwardian "Gentleman". He blathered on about all the usual Socialist stuff -- equality, re-distribution of wealth, inclusive society etc etc.

Closer to home and during this election campaign, I happened to drive past my local Labour candidate's house, festooned with "Vote Labour" banners, I actually did LOL. This impressive residence is a recent new-build, £1m+ detached mansion in one of the more exclusive areas of the town.

To me this is why the grass roots, natural Labour voters don't trust Corbyn or the Labour party. They know that the MPs have more in common with their Tory counter-parts than with them. They vote them in, but only to worry the more extreme wing of the tories, or until their policies become too radical.

Corbyn suffered the perfect storm and lost because of the combination of the on-going distrust of Labour and the popular determination to leave the EU, which in itself came about because of the more general distrust of the political class.

Re: The blame gameNew-Build

vamo48 — Tue, 24 Dec 2019 11:08:55 GMT

Labour lost because in all the years the Tories have made a mess of things, they couldn't make themselves look like a credible alternative. Corbyn is not a natural leader, and has a very disloyal party.